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Caitlyn Jenner is 'too good looking'...

(129 Posts)
FeijoaSundae Sat 06-Jun-15 02:48:32

Is there already a thread on this? I've looked and don't see one, so apologies if I'm repeating.

I've just opened our Saturday paper down here at the bottom of the planet, and there's yet another article where a transgender woman is bemoaning the unfairness of Caitlyn's good looks versus her own less than amazing looks.

A couple of quotes from the article: "...the discussion has quickly zeroed in on her elegant femininity - a look far out of reach or most transgender women".

"Caitlyn's beauty makes it problematic for a fat old queen like myself who ... could never emulate Raquel Welsh or Michelle Pfieffer".

And ... "The discussion remained traumatically offending to transgender people whose own 'accident of birth' will never allow them to be a Caitlyn".

Um ... welcome to womanhood...? The looks of pretty much all women who feature of the cover of Vanity Fair are out of the reach of most regular women. confused

Is this genuinely surprising ... ? It's akin to Dustin Hoffman expressing dissatisfaction with his Tootsy make-over, and saying no, he wants to be a beautiful women. Not a plain one (to be fair, his subsequent epiphany was rather lovely). Well, don't we all, mate, don't we all. grin

I apologise in advance to any transgender people who think I'm making light of an issues facing their community. But this is an issue that has faced our community since, well, forever. It's part and parcel of being a woman. We are judged, first and foremost, in our looks. Not our ability, or intelligence, or kindness. We are judged on our looks. Welcome to our world!

MrsTerryPratchett Sat 06-Jun-15 03:14:54

I've been meaning to post about the nasty comparisons between how the Vanity Fair shoot looks and Kris Jenner's looks. All over my FB. Because what every person wants is to be unfavorably compared to their transgender partner's looks when they are divorcing. It's just horrible. All that is important is who looks like what.

velouria Sat 06-Jun-15 03:34:20

Totally agree, by accident of genetics or whatever, I seem to be a somewhat fat and ugly Woman. To add to my dilemma, I have no interest in traditionally Female pursuits, have no interest in pandering to Men, couldn't give a shiny shite about this ideal of a hairless, surgically enhanced sexbot.

Apparently now I should register as a A MAN, because obviously I couldn't possibly be female.

MyFriendsCallMeOh Sat 06-Jun-15 04:37:11

Welcome to the world of women. Overnight,as Bruce changed into Caitlyn, he stopped being judged on who he was and what he did and she was suddenly taken wholly at face value, her face, body, clothes and hair scrutinized.

Caitlyn has undergone extensive facial feminization surgery, of course she will look good, her face has been designed rather than born. Caitlyn truly is a woman, not only physically, emotionally, spiritually but also in the way she is treated, she knows she has to conform to a certain standard of beauty being in the public eye and she's doing that from day one. It's pretty sad.

TheBlackRider Sat 06-Jun-15 07:59:46

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

merrymouse Sat 06-Jun-15 08:04:52

I suspect that most people would look stunning when photographed by Annie Leibovitz for the cover of Vanity Fair, including Kris Jenner.

southeastastra Sat 06-Jun-15 08:07:25

i think it's all a bit silly

sebsmummy1 Sat 06-Jun-15 08:09:20

I was going to say that that isn't actually how he looks in real life is it? We have seen an elderly man with fine, sparce hair and some interesting facial surgery now looking very womanly and attractive as a result of a photo shoot. I suspect an army of hairdressers and make up artists could make me look pretty good too, see me in the morning thought an OMG it's not pretty at all.

FeijoaSundae Sat 06-Jun-15 08:53:27

It's no doubt a combination of surgery, make-up, smoke and mirrors.

But regardless, it's NO different to the women we see on the covers of glossies every day - amazing make-up and styling, probably a fair old dollop of surgery, a massive win in the genetic lottery, and some photo-shopping thrown in for good measure.

None of us can live up to that on a daily basis. Not even genuine beauties.

This is the lot of women. We're judged on our looks, there is a very narrow definition of beauty, and that standard is held up every day for us to compare ourselves to, if we so wish. That this reality comes as a shock and an unpleasant surprise to some transgender women is ... odd.

Maybe it's a case of being careful what you wish for. You might just get it.

LassUnparalleled Sat 06-Jun-15 09:31:22

You know apart from on here I've never met any woman who has so little self worth that she considers she is judged solely or mainly by her physical appearance. Or who thought Vogue or VF shoots were achievable.
It's not saying much about the intelligence of women really.
Transwomen who don't like the way Jenner has been styled simply will have to do what we do- think yeah looks great, it's not real and then get on with their lives being themselves and looking like themselves.

cailindana Sat 06-Jun-15 09:43:21

In your opinion why do women spend billions of dollars worldwide on cosmetics and plastic surgery Lass?

VixxFace Sat 06-Jun-15 09:46:45

But Bruce had surgery, make up and photo shop . Anyone can look good with that.

YonicScrewdriver Sat 06-Jun-15 09:47:56

Yy Fejoia.

cantbelieveimonhere Sat 06-Jun-15 09:55:03

Agree with VixxFace PHOTOSHOP people!!! Find it interesting though that so many accept Bruce/Caitlyn's reports that I "feel" like a woman etc when for years many have accepted feminism's battlecry that there is no difference between male and female, we're all the same etc

FeijoaSundae Sat 06-Jun-15 10:22:14

We're judged first and foremost on on our looks Lass; not solely on them.

I'm surprised that anyone could deny this. Of course, I'm talking at a population, bigger-picture level; individual women will naturally have different experiences.

And most women realize only too well that a Vogue cover shoot is unachievable, that's the point of the thread. It's the surprise being expressed within the transgender community about this, that this thread's about.

LurcioAgain Sat 06-Jun-15 10:23:47

cantbelieve - I think if you look at the numerous trans threads on here at the moment, I think you'll find very little overlap between the group of people saying "being a woman is about how you feel" and the group of people who say "gender is a social construction whereby society imposes 'sex roles' on people according to their genital makeup at birth". That's why people are arguing for thousands of posts (I agree that the two positions are at best in tension with one another and at eorst irreconcilable - but I don't see many people out there trying to espouse both at oncw).

zozzij Sat 06-Jun-15 10:23:55

Caitlyn Jenner does not look good confused

FeijoaSundae Sat 06-Jun-15 10:32:04

I don't necessarily disagree with you, zzozij but beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and there certainly seem to be some people who are quite put out by her.

TheBlackRider Sat 06-Jun-15 10:35:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FeijoaSundae Sat 06-Jun-15 10:43:21

None of us feel judged solely on our looks, I don't think, unless we're models, actors or work in the sex industry.

grumpyuncleR Sat 06-Jun-15 12:34:28

This excellent article points up the contradictions-
www.dallasnews.com/opinion/latest-columns/20150605-robert-jensen-a-transgender-problem-for-diversity-politics.ece

and this-
"In their eagerness to ally with the trans movement, third-wave feminists have fundamentally altered their definition of womanhood to accommodate men"
thefederalist.com/2015/06/03/how-the-hypersexual-trans-movement-hurts-feminism/

LassUnparalleled Sat 06-Jun-15 12:40:19

I don't agree with the statement that woman are judged first and foremost on their looks. If a man or a woman for that matter is out on the town looking for a sexual encounter,then yes. If it's a job interview then no. That is not true.

So far as Caitlyn Jenner personally I find that cover obviously fake whoever the subject was.

"Passing" gets mentioned a lot in relation to transwomen. If it weren't for the fact she is famous and would be recognised Kelly Maloney in photographs seems to wear clothes and level of make up which wouldn't cause anyone to give a second look to any 60 year old woman out walking her dogs or shopping. Dressed up she seems to go for the flattering but safe Hobbs style of evening wear which again will not make anyone bat an eyelid.

cailindana Sat 06-Jun-15 12:56:48

Lass - if women don't feel pressure to look good, why do they spend billions on cosmetics and plastic surgery?

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 Sat 06-Jun-15 13:16:32

I have been judged on my looks many many times.

My children are female and conventionally pretty (blonde, big blue eyes, slender) and people react to them and pay them compliments based on that, as they did with me.

Men will say stuff to you on the street, shout stuff at you, and so forth giving their verdict (positive or negative) of random women they see about the place.

Images of attractive women are used to sell everything, magazine covers point at female celebrities and whether they are passing or failing in being attractive in that particular moment, in a way that does not happen nearly as much for men. My free paper on the train (which I no longer read but struggle not to over people's shoulders - why are things other people are reading much more interesting???) feature women in various levels of undress throughout as decoration basically, noting to do with the news.

Look at an event like the Oscars - look at the images of the men and women on the red carpet - look at and listen to the commentary. This is supposed to be about acting, and even when taking into account that Hollywood is for beautiful people, the difference in the variety of men in terms in age and attractiveness, or different types of attractiveness, compared to the women, and the fairly obvious difference in levels of ornamentation required and critiqued upon.....

I can never understand when people say that women are judged no more on their looks than men are. It's just not true.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 Sat 06-Jun-15 13:20:23

That aside, I find it interesting that a lot of the commentary on this picture is well anyone could look that good with lots of surgery. As if it is desirable to have lots of surgery, if the result is you look good, and by good it's significantly younger than you are and meeting a specific western ideal of feminine attractiveness.

Whole thing's awful. It's shit for loads of different groups of people! racist, sexist, ageist, this is what images like this reflect of our society and everyone says Wow Great! confused

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