Just a bit of a question not a judgement about the boards

[FallenThroughTheRabitHole]

I tend to go between various topics to see what others are saying. If I'm being honest the large part of my time here is spent in either Chat, AIBU or Relationships. I know those topics aren't a representation of MNet as a whole but you go where you go nonetheless.
I was just wondering if anyone had come across responses to various threads in which they thought "What on earth!?"

On the relationships board I've often found the 'Tell it like it is' clan, who often, if not always, have nothing better to offer than variations of 'LTB' are rife and are never actually helpful in way of advice or support.

Chat is normally relaxed... and AIBU is usually set up for a flaming of sorts. This is the internet after all so no-one should be losing sleep but I've always wondered how this would appear from a feminist perspective - The advice we are offering each other here.

I'm not complaining about these boards as I've often found a lot of supportive advice but one comment that hit me was someone saying that they couldn't believe the amount of ingrained misogyny on various threads.

[AnyFucker]

why have you posted this innocent question on a Feminism topic ?

[FallenThroughTheRabitHole]

Where should I have posted?

I did so because it is to do with feminism. Not an innocent question, we're not children! I'd appreciate diverse views.
You are also apparently one of the most helpful people on here I've seen AnyFucker

[JulyKit]

Fallen, the only question in your OP seems to be if anyone had come across responses to various threads in which they thought "What on earth!?"

In answer to that, well yes, of course I have, many times. and I've also thought:

• Wow, that's interesting.
  
• Really?
  
• Utter bullshit.
  
• 
  
• 
  
• 
  
• OMG, I must remember that.
  
• I want to ask a question...
  
• I can help here.
  
• OMG, that poster is really smart.
  
• Nowt so odd as folk.
  
• I've been on here far too long, must get back to work.
  

• etc., etc....
  

Does that help answer your question?

[almondcakes]

Some sections have more of a sense of community feel than others; it is probably due to the number of posters. AIBU has large numbers of posters; in areas like S&B the numbers are smaller and so they tend to be kinder and gently remind others to be.

[FallenThroughTheRabitHole]

I agree about numbers almond S&B has always been pleasant, I do admit.

July I've often experienced the same thoughts... often within the same thread as it happens!

AF hope you caught on to my sense of irony r.e. helpful...

[scallopsrgreat]

"On the relationships board I've often found the 'Tell it like it is' clan, who often, if not always, have nothing better to offer than variations of 'LTB' are rife and are never actually helpful in way of advice or support. "

And you want a feminist slant on why astute women tell other women suffering at the hands of abusers to leave them?

[AnyFucker]

No, I took it literally

cheers

[TeiTetua]

FallenThroughTheRabitHole did say at the end, "one comment that hit me was someone saying that they couldn't believe the amount of ingrained misogyny on various threads". I'd call that worthy of note by feminists, that somebody's saying that people on Mumsnet (the vast majority of them women) don't like women, or at least think women belong in a subordinate position.

Personally I hardly ever venture onto other parts of Mumsnet, except AIBU when I'm feeling bored, so I can't say I agree with this or not. It's a sad thing if true. Maybe if someone is saying "you're an idiot" it gets interpreted as "you're saying something women shouldn't say" (or similar dismissive response based on gender). And also, maybe there's an instinct that women ought to behave better than men, and so if a woman doesn't behave well, she's failing as a woman and not just as a rude person.

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

I don't follow: are you saying you don't think there is much ingrained misogyny? On MN, or in general?

Or are you saying it's odd for people to suggest breaking up a marriage, too?

Surely all of these things depend on context.

[FallenThroughTheRabitHole]

scallop That wasn't what I was asking at all. Not in the slightest. I'm very much in support of women leaving abusers but that wasn't the point I was making.

AF Thanks! Good for you!

TBR I was just asking what you make of some of the advice offered on here considering it isn't as easy as just doing ABC. Be it LTB or negotiating a pay rise or whatever. I'd describe myself as a feminist but I'd also describe myself as a realist. Just because I'd like ABC to happen doesn't mean it will and certainly I'd rather approach threads from the point of view of being understanding rather than judgemental. I was just wondering if anyone had experienced or thought similar.

[AuntieStella]

If you think that posters are giving wrong advice, then you need to take it up in the specific threads where it's happening.

I've posted that, pretty much word for word, on a number of recent threads in which there is general slagging off of MNetters (and relationship advice in particular).

No amount of TAATs will ever be an adequate substitute for posting what you think is better advice on the actual threads themselves.

[rootypig]

Your post is so jumbled it belies any sensible response.

But if you want to make a judgement, please feel free to just do it. Noone is fooled by needs the prancing around it.

Can you distinguish women being extremely blunt, and even very rude to each other, from misogyny? There are various tropes here, real or imagined - LTB is one - but I don't detect misogyny.

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

fallen - I dunno, do you think LTB is that bad?

I think it has to do with personality. I did LTB (though he wasn't a bastard, just not right for me), and it was good to have someone who wasn't emotionally invested to tell me it looked simple from where they were.

I feel the same on here often. It's not that I think it's easy to get rid of my own ingrained misogyny, but we can all call each other out, and discuss it, and gradually it becomes easier.

[rootypig]

Cross posts. That makes more sense. Yes, I think that advice given here too often is in the realm of saying, rather than doing. In real life things are difficult, complex, nuanced, and slow transformation plays more of a role than people can acknowledge in this type of forum, where threads typically blow up and die in a few days.

I still don't detect the misogynistic quality - unless you are arguing (and it would be fair) that women arguably have less freedom to enact the type of advice given here than men do?

[FallenThroughTheRabitHole]

Yes Jeanne everything is contextual. But I'm saying I do think there is a great deal of subconscious misogyny. On Mn and of course in RL. I'm not suggesting it's odd that people think the best course of action is breaking up a marriage - I'd support that 100% especially if it's in the best interest of OP or children etc involved but it's not always as easy as just LTB! Lock him out and put all his things in bin bags "This marriage is over.!" It's just not. It's FC so was just wondering the opinions of others.

[FujimotosElixir]

its the clique mentality, you get it in the playground, work place, internet...the less high traffic forums ive noticed are less,..pitbull with a shoe, like b&d , etc .. I think relationships is probably support wise the bed board there is.

[FujimotosElixir]

*best

[rootypig]

You're going to have to give several specific examples.

[scallopsrgreat]

But people don't just say LTB. They give reasons why he isn't going to change; name the problem; move the OPs Overton window; advise on what to do next; agencies to contact; emotional support and lots and lots of empathy.

You are reducing and dismissing what happens on the Relationship board down to LTB. That's pretty misogynistic right there.

[FallenThroughTheRabitHole]

rootypig please point out the parts that confuse you. I'm happy to clarify. I can only comment for this forum. I'd guess the majority here are women and therefore it isn't as easy as men may have it to just 'act' on certain advice. I know we can only say, but I also think it is our duty to also think through what we are saying and the practicality and feasibility of it. Put on someone else's shoes if you will. I could tell you that my MIL is a narc and you all say go NC but it's not as easy as just not answering her phone calls or whatever. And I think we do ourselves a disservice by proffering such simplistic views.

Stella On here you can't bombarded or derail a thread by taking up an issue without being deleted. Sure you can offer a different opinion and indeed disagree but it's not quite the same as what one would say to a poster who clearly doesn't get the nuanced aspect of life.

As we are all detached from the situations we comment on I often think this isn't how it can or should be played out and it is not in support of the wo/man you are trying to support. Life doesn't work that way. My example of the relationships board was just one such example, there are (or actually just one poster who I've noticed) who's first in line to shout 'LTB' but it isn't as simple as that, and I often think saying things like that do more of a disservice.

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

fallen - yeah, but it's swings and roundabouts, I think.

One poster will rail against the people who say 'LTB', but another needs to hear it.

Personally, I didn't find gentle, considered 'hmm, have you considered couples' counselling, and then, the paperwork, and also, perhaps, a week with a friend before you come to a decision ...' kind of advice worked for me. I don't know why. Because, obviously, you have to do at least some of those things. And when I did 'leave', it took me a good few weeks to move out.

But it was people being quite blunt and common-sense about it that actually made me think, ok, I can do this and it will work out.

People are different in how they need to hear the same messages.

[FallenThroughTheRabitHole]

Thanks anotherday

rootypig I can't give specific examples as that in itself would be me bullying someone else and making a show of someone's life whose probably in a precarious and fragile position. I can't give specific examples here for that reason. But I'm happy for you to message me if you want to have an in-depth conversation on it.

scallop that's exactly what I'm saying, people do just say things like:
"LTB"
"That would be it for me"
"Leave him and put his shit in bin bags"

My point is it's not as easy as that. As a feminist and as a woman and as a realist (I use that last term wisely) I can see how it can't just happen like that. And I don't accept that just because we are on an internet forum we can storm into someones life (I accept that they've put their story online for the comments) but being all the things I am means I can't just storm in with a few words about LTB or 'get a grip' or whatever and be done with it. If that person had been my friend in RL no way I'd storm in there with 'words of wisdom' then storm back out.

Elixir I know relationships is one of the most supportive boards! (Not that it matters but it's actually because of that board I found MN) but that doesn't give posters the green light to comment the way they do. I'm not saying this is everyone on MN but I am saying this movement starts with the very basic offering of supporting another woman rather than making her feel like she's somehow being an idiot or some such.

[AskBasil]

I agree with Jeanne

I think there is such a strong taboo about criticising other people's marriages or even offering advice - even when it's asked for - in RL that to have a space here where people say what they honestly think, is incredibly valuable and useful tbh.

No one thinks "LTB" means the poster is going to pack her bag as soon as she closes the laptop.

But a long line of women pointing out that actually, realistically, this relationship is highly unlikely ever to be decent, reasonable and good and therefore in the end is going to have to end, is something many people will never hear from their RL friends and they need to hear it here - almost as a first step to giving them permission to even imagine that it might be possible.