Feminist Discussion with Younger Generation?

[HostOfDaffodils]

There's a member of my close family circle in her mid-twenties. She's planning to marry her first boyfriend - if she has been out with anyone else before, it'd have been just a couple of nights out - who she met in her first weeks of university, when she was nineteen.

Her boyfriend is hardworking, energetic and successful. I am sure that, in his way, he is fond of her. My concerns are that a) perhaps because he is the only child of well-off parents, he can appear selfish and entitled. He's not had to share or do without. And b) that as he has a strong personality, without being in any way bullying, he can appear to dominate.

My younger relative was brought up in a house with a very strong-minded parent and sibling. I think she's quite used to being dominated and has opted for a rather dominating boyfriend because - to her - this feels familiar and what she's used to.

I feel that despite doing a demanding, time-consuming job, and being slightly fragile in terms of health, my relative is spending a lot of time looking after her partner. She'll get up at 5 am to drive him to the station, instead of telling him to get a taxi. She does all the cooking, believing that her partner can't be trusted to cook. (She has been diagnosed with a gluten allergy.) Rather than going on holiday with her, at the specific times of year when she has leave, he recently disappeared off on a skiing holiday with his mates. This was at a time when she was struggling to do with upheavals at work. Essentially she's looking after herself and doing a lot of looking after him.

He is dismissive of most of her old friends, and also of all but one of the friends she made at university. He doesn't come back with her for visits to her home city, and/or accompany to visit her relatives. The last time he came to our house was eighteen months ago, to collect some of her possessions which we were looking after. (Her old friends don't much like hi meither.)

Nevertheless my younger relative is convinced he's the right one and talks about when they are going to get married. However, she insists that they are not engaged, because he has not yet proposed.

My partner and I are a bit concerned about whether or not she's looking at the future in a clear-sighted way, and are wondering whether to try and broach this very tricky subject, during a forthcoming visit she'll be making.

What would you do in my situation? Or not do?

[TheCountessofFitzdotterel]

I wouldn't frame it as feminism. I would just talk about good relationships a lot around her until she noticed for herself that women can expect better.

[BoobooChild]

Your cousin is an adult so how she lives in her choice, but I completely understand your concerns. I think it is OK that you want to broach the subject with her but I'm not sure the best way to do this would be. I know if I was in her position I'd probably be quite defensive of my partner and my relationship, so you'd need to be careful not to make it so she shuts down from you and feels unable to reach out to you in the future.

Grr it's really difficult. I can see why you're worried as he sounds like he could very dominating and the fact that he doesn't come with her for visiting family and friends sounds like a massive warning sign. I know I found the freedom programme helpful in clarifying types of abusive behaviour, but to point her to that could go completely wrong, especially if he isn't that bad. You are an outsider after all and don't know everything about there relationship.

Sorry I think you might get better answers in relationships.

[GibberingFlapdoodle]

Yes, try relationships. I also don't think feminism is the right angle, but it does sound like he's on the coercive control spectrum - the business about dismissing her friends and not meeting her family is classic isolating behaviour. Coercive control is being made illegal of course, you could try that as an angle.

Above all else make sure she knows she has your support whatever happens, whenever she needs it.

[StillLostAtTheStation]

Rather than going on holiday with her, at the specific times of year when she has leave, he recently disappeared off on a skiing holiday with his mates.

Do you mean they never go on holiday together at all? Or that he should not use some of his leave to go on holiday with his friends?

Re visiting each other's families husband and I hardly ever did this. He has his family, I have mine.

On the cooking front I would struggle to cook for gluten free. She may sell prefer to do it herself and not sure it's any of your business.

[HostOfDaffodils]

I think for me it is tied up with an older generation that - in the case of my partner and I at any rate - is more alternative than (it would often appear) - the younger one.

So, I'm a bit bemused by stuff like my relative's 'waiting for him to propose.' And noting that the house where they live appears to be somewhere where his mates will come and stay, but not her friends. Or I suppose it would be seen as odd if a bloke was on a gluten-free diet but their long term life female partner said, 'Oh that's too difficult for me,' so the bloke did absolutely all the cooking for both of them for then on. I think relationships are all about power, power-sharing, the balance of power. So, as a feminist, I am constantly thinking about roles and conditioning and equality - and whether my partner and I need to discuss stuff and change the way we do things.

I suppose it's only my business in so far as that I am a relative and I want to stay in touch. I can see that she's tired - which is partly to do with her job - though I think partly to do with the fact that she's gone off to live with somebody who's not very there for her, quite a long way from old friends and family. I find myself rather hoping that she doesn't rush into having children with this person. But it's a matter of just waiting and seeing what happens and hoping for the best.

[HostOfDaffodils]

Oh and she works in education, so has fairly long holidays - although there's obviously a lot of preparation etc to do then. Other than two days to somebody's wedding, they have not been on holiday together for about nine months, I think. I have a strong sense that she would prefer her partner to have accompanied her to see family members on at least some of the last few Christmasses. But either they've seen his family - who are just a few miles away from where they live - or she has visited her relatives on her own.

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

From the way you describe it, it does sound worrying, and there is the danger that people will focus on the individual details and miss the bigger picture - especially her.

It's really easy to do that, to think each individual thing you're doing in a relationship can be justified, without managing to step back and see that, as a bigger picture, there is a problem.

I agree with countess this is easiest to see as an issue of healthy relationships.

Is it possible to try gently to get her to think about the future? Eg., if further down the line she is (say) recovering from a C section and trying to feed a newborn, who would do that cooking? Who would drive him to the station?

She (and he) might both think that these are concessions she's making to him just 'for the moment' and that the situation would change if need be. But I think in a healthy relationship, if you are planning on getting married, these are things that it's useful to have in the back of your mind.

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

Cross post.

On the cooking: it is perfectly normal for one partner to prefer to do all the cooking. It is a bit more of a problem, in practical terms, if the other partner believes they cannot cook and couldn't step in if needed.

[HostOfDaffodils]

Yes, I know there are some relationships where the bloke does all the cooking. They like it/are better at it whatever. (Often, I think when there are no children or if the bloke is the stay at home parent. It wouldn't really work if the cook was the sole breadwinner, and the other partner was staying at home with small children.)

For me, I suspect the act of cooking is quite a symbolic/nurturing one. I really like it when my partner cooks for me - and it makes me feel very cared for. It's also particularly soothing to be cooked for sometimes after a long or difficult day of work. So personally I think a bit of flexibility there may be a 'healthy' sign in a relationship.

[ChunkyPickle]

Yes, it's easy to look at the details as Jeanne says - for example DP and I live much closer to his parents, he can seem quite dominating to other people (he isn't at home, but has a job where he has to be firm with people), he's a lazy toad who will avoid doing anything he can around the house etc. given half a chance.

BUT we're both grown adults who have lived both with together and separately, had many other relationships, lived all over the world, including near my parents for a bit etc. so looking at the context, whilst there are things we should work on, it's generally a relationship of equals who look after each other when needed.

I don't think you can hit this head on though. Could you enlist the help of couples around you, have them be extra together and helpful to each other while she's around? It's a trifle under handed, but I can't imagine directly talking to her about it will get anywhere, rather making her realise for herself and become dissatisfied with what she's got and work to change it might be more effective?

[PuffinsAreFictitious]

I think Jeanne nails it really. Things which are nice things to do for one another can often become so ingrained that problems arise when the doer is unable to do for whatever reason. If, as you say, the main doer is your relative, that could portend rocks and difficulties for the future.

[CollatalieSisters]

I have no idea how to broach any conversation, but would second doing so only in a manner that you are sure will not damage your relationship with her. It sounds like she is already starting to be isolated from friends, and it sounds like she is going to be in need of people who care about her.

Slight digression to note that when I was on maternity leave with dc, dp still did 90% of the cooking (and there's nowhere else on mumsnet I'd confess that!). He likes it better than I do and is better at it. But I agree that complete inflexibility is not a healthy sign - people in relationships are supposed to care about each other. Your relative's dp doesn't sound very caring.

[Jessica2point0]

Most of what you've said could also be said about my relationship at the moment, but there are perfectly sensible reasons.

I tend to see my family without DP because I go immediately after Mass on Sundays but he isn't Catholic so doesn't come.
I do all the cooking because I like cooking and he hates it.
His friends come to our home regularly though mine don't because his friends come over to watch sport with us, but I'd rather meet my friends in pubs (because they don't like sport).
I think we will get married and sometimes talk about it with family, but I'm not sure I'm ready, and I know he isn't ready yet.
He has been on holiday with his friends recently and is going again without me (football and stag do).

It may appear from the outside that we've got an unequal relationship, but that is because from the outside you don't see everything. By all means talk to your relative, but make sure you go in to any discussion prepared to be told that it isn't any of your business, and / or that things aren't always as they seem.

In our case, DP likes my family and loves how close we are, he does the vast majority of the cleaning (because he's better at in than me), he likes my friends but doesn't have much in common with them, we'll get married if/when we're both ready, and we will go on holiday together when I get round to getting a new passport!

[HostOfDaffodils]

I think there are other things that niggle with me. It's lots of small bits of unease really.

On the occasions when my relative has visited with her boyfriend and also when we've gone to see them, both my partner and I have noticed that she fades herself out. It's as if when he's around she lets him take centre stage and defers to him and puts herself in the shadows.

Initially we'd thought it was just because she wanted us to have the maximum opportunity get to know her boyfriend. But this pattern has repeated itself on subsequent occasions.

So while, on the one hand, we'd be pleased if he accompanied her on at least some family visits, it's as if we can only get to talk to her properly, and see her own personality come forward, when he's not about.

[Dotheyfloat]

Feminism would appear to have failed to have given her a backbone thus far, so at this point what are you going to do other than tell her to only consider marrying weak-willed men?

[YonicScrewdriver]

You again, DTF?