Newnight report on brothels

(1000 Posts)
itshardthinkingofanickname Thu 20-Feb-14 22:53:40

Worth £16 billion in Germany. Legal to "make it safer".

Interview with 22 yr old Hannah. 6 men per night, earns 100 to 1000 euros per night,

Talking about should it be illegal in the UK and the fact that brothels are safer than the streets. They have super brothels in Germany.

itshardthinkingofanickname Thu 20-Feb-14 22:54:28

400,000 sex workers in Germany. It's doubled since the law was introduced.

InPursuitOfOblivion Thu 20-Feb-14 22:55:14

By super brothels do you mean large or good? grin

itshardthinkingofanickname Thu 20-Feb-14 22:56:39

Large ones - apparently there's more brothels just near the borders. 80 women per night.

itshardthinkingofanickname Thu 20-Feb-14 23:03:49

Interesting debate afterwards. Choice of women to enter prostution to criminalising the buyer.

itshardthinkingofanickname Thu 20-Feb-14 23:05:38

And does criminalising the buyer reduce trafficking? Which is seems to have done.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 21-Feb-14 00:55:25

Yes, criminalising the buyer reduces both trafficking and use of prostitutes.

InPursuitOfOblivion Fri 21-Feb-14 08:36:36

Can you get it on catchup/on demand? Sounds interesting but was past my bedtime!

itshardthinkingofanickname Fri 21-Feb-14 08:40:43

I presume so.

They had a well known sex worker who is part of the sex workers union. The debate got quite heated.

VivianStanshall Fri 21-Feb-14 08:48:40

(bloke speaking)

I have the same view on prostitution as I do on the drugs trade.

I don't like that either of them exists but they do and they always will despite the government's best efforts.

By criminalising them you push the prostitute / drug user into criminality and make them vulnerable to exploitation or even death.

So legalise and regulate them both. And the government can tax them to keep it happy.

itshardthinkingofanickname Fri 21-Feb-14 09:16:36

About 20 minutes in

CaptChaos Fri 21-Feb-14 10:05:40

Human speaking.

The Nordic Model, which only criminalises the users of prostituted women and people who make money from prostituted women, protects those women. Decriminalisation protects no one.

VivianStanshall Fri 21-Feb-14 10:55:57

I don't see how it protects prostitutes Human (why "prostituted women"?, this suggests they are all controlled by pimps) if the men who use them are criminalised because then they will continue to liaise in the same rough uncontrolled areas that they do now.

InPursuitOfOblivion Fri 21-Feb-14 11:12:26

Thanks itshardthinking

Well murder has been around for a while too, and is hard to completely eradicate. Should we legalise and regulate that?

Ha, you will scoff, but the person being murdered hasn't "consented" and anyway, murder is a crime.

There's something distasteful about comparing the institution of prostitution with that of illegal drugs. Mostly, I think, because heroin isn't a human being with feelings. Whereas the women traded for sex…

The problem is, with all these comparisons, I don't think any hold. There is nothing like prostitution. Low status jobs, tough jobs that most people wouldn't want to do, jobs that require some form of intimate contact with strangers. Murder, the drug trade. They aren't the same. Comparisons like these have a an agenda, and they obfuscate the debate.

Closest comparison I think is organ donation and surrogacy. In both of which circumstances it has been deemed illegal to purchase access to someone's body, even if they would consent to provide it.

Question is, are women full humans and should men be allowed to purchase access to their bodies?

GarlicLeGrenouille Fri 21-Feb-14 12:20:41

comparing the institution of prostitution with that of illegal drugs ... heroin isn't a human being with feelings. Whereas the women traded for sex…

This is one big thing that Mumsnet FWR helped me clarify. It seems so obvious now!

"Would you like to work as a spunk receptacle?"
Well, no, it's not 'like labouring on a building site' or 'being a performance artist' is it? I've seen both similes used in good faith. The only remotely comparable trades are organ donation and surrogacy - and, perhaps, being a drugs mule. None of those involve the sheer repetition, or the show of intimacy, required by prostitution. But they are illegal.

VivianStanshall Fri 21-Feb-14 12:41:22

I think legalising it and controlling will put an end to the steady stream of murdered prostitutes that happen because the illegality of prostitution means the women have to put themsleves at risk.

The same as I think legalising and controlling drugs will stop rogue batches and drug-related crime.

I am not saying that prostitution and illegal drugs are equivalent (though if you really wanted to you could possibly hmm read that into my last post) but that a similar solution works for both and if prostitution continues to be illegal in this country then more women will get murdered.

I don't think it's the illegality of prostitution that means the women have to put themselves at risk. I think it's the structural inequality, poverty and gender hierarchy (and if I wanted to be nice, I'd leave out male entitlement to women's bodies) that means women are put in a position where selling men access to their bodies becomes an option they will consider.

I think eradicating it (or at least significantly reducing it) by adopting the Nordic model will also have the happy consequence of reducing the steady stream of murdered prostitutes as well as the rather wonderful side effect of women increasingly being regarded as proper humans, not commodities.

Can I ask, are you playing Devil's Advocate here, or do you genuinely believe that it is in the best interests of women across the world to legalise the right of men to pay for access to their bodies?

And, not wanting to be picky or anything, you did say "I have the same view on prostitution as I do on the drugs trade." From which I inferred that, well, you have the same view on prostitution as you do on the drugs trade. Rather than attempting to make me look foolish and / or attempting to manipulate the discussion using questionable tactics, why not focus on the content of my post?

migsy86 Fri 21-Feb-14 12:51:05

Im a prostitute and selling sex isn't illegal in this country. I also don't want my clients criminalised.

I am a full human and would like the right to allow men to use me for sexual services.

All aspects of prostitution should be legal, i.e working together ect.

Hi Migsy how are you doing?

migsy86 Fri 21-Feb-14 13:01:20

I'm ok Buffy. Thanks for asking x

VivianStanshall Fri 21-Feb-14 13:09:11

Fair enough Buffy, I see you could have read my post in that way although (as I've clarified) that was not my meaning.

I don't have a strong view on the ethics of it, I don't particularly like it but I'm not going to extend that to say ban it, but as long as nobody is being coerced into anything I don't see why it should be illegal and the regulation should be framed in favour of the health and well being of the prostitutes.

If migsy wants to do then she should be allowed to IMO.

Thing is, as a bloke, you don't really need to have a strong view on the ethics of it. You can take it or leave it and if you leave it, it won't have much of an effect on your life.

As a women who is affected by societal misogyny propped up to no small extent by the idea that women can be purchased, I don't have that luxury. But I am luckier, much luckier than women forced to choose to sell access to their bodies by circumstances.

I think framing regulation in favour of the health and wellbeing of women doesn't include state sanction of men's right to buy them. I think time and energy would be better spent in finding ways to give women better options.

VivianStanshall Fri 21-Feb-14 14:10:41

True, no effect on me. I have had friends who've mentioned that they have and that's up to them, I don't openly approve or disapprove.

I'm not up for a feminism debate but doesn't the fact that there are a lot of male prostitutes out there (the Paul Flowers case highlighting this) show that men as well as women can be purchased?

I would also go ahead fix an existing problem rather than putting it on hold in its current bad state.

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