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Japan can't be bothered to have relationships any more

(50 Posts)
youretoastmildred Mon 21-Oct-13 17:16:42

I think this is really interesting.

I have often wondered in the context of the "why do women put up with selfish men?" conversations what would happen if they stopped.
Because most men expect relationships to be weighted in their favour (they just do, only on mn do you meet women who don't know any lazy selfish men).
So if only the percentage of decent men had relationships, and the rest did not, what would happen to society? Does Japan have the answer?

Disappointingly it doesn't seem that the immediate response is to remake relationships according to a template of love and respect so people want to have them again

mediarek Sun 27-Oct-13 13:43:06

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Catchhimatwhat Sun 27-Oct-13 10:30:41

I lived in Japan. Strange place, to me as a westerner. Some things I preferred, others not.

I did find the porn far more ubiquitous, and disturbing, personally.

SigmundFraude Sun 27-Oct-13 09:40:41

'Hello Sig, did you have a nice break?'

Did I go somewhere?

SigmundFraude Sun 27-Oct-13 09:34:11

'Where do you get the idea that porn is so prolific in Japan compared to the UK or other countries?'


snowqu33n Sun 27-Oct-13 06:05:31

" I wonder if this is connected with the proliferation of porn in Japan and particularly the schoolgirl / BDSM type of stuff."
Where do you get the idea that porn is so prolific in Japan compared to the UK or other countries? Explicit porn is illegal in Japan and any pictures of genitals are pixellated out. So much so that Customs will check any magazines you are carrying at Immigration and have been known to confiscate UK lads mags for being too explicit. That goes for manga and anime too. There is probably illegal stuff available, same as in the UK, I don't personally know, but it is not on general sale.

mediarek Sun 27-Oct-13 01:40:45

And my statement isn't sexist either, because sexism only applies to women.

mediarek Sun 27-Oct-13 01:40:06

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snowqu33n Sun 27-Oct-13 01:31:53

mediark - 'Japanese men are pigs!'?? That's my husband you are talking about. There is a ton of exaggeration, generalization and downright RACISM in this thread.
The problems for people in Japan are greatly due to demographics and economics. There are lots of older people in jobs for life, who refuse to retire, and younger people are coming into a workforce where salaries are much lower, but prices are being kept artificially high by a government that wants to prevent further deflation. Women are able to work, but if they marry or have a baby, they are strongly encouraged to stop, and they can't reenter the workforce. So, they become dependent on their husbands. Some women like this, others do not. This is also the case for many women in the UK and other countries, so it isn't unique to Japan.
However, there are thousands of people who don't conform to the status quo and who do things differently to the norm. People who drop out of a corporate job and open their own business, people who buy a farm in the middle of nowhere, etc. etc.
The 'no sex please, we are Japanese' situation has a lot to do with the Japanese ideal of self-control or 'gaman'. Rather than raise expectations or hurt someone's feelings when the man is not able to take on the responsibility of a relationship, they opt out of sexual encounters altogether and focus on other interests. It doesn't mean they are hitting up the red light districts either, because those have also been hit by the economic situation.
It's also a rebellion against the previous generation of 'macho businessmen' who were all about work and 'manly' pursuits at the cost of their home-life. The most effeminate young Japanese guys are the ones who are popular with the girls, it is the fashion for the current young generation. The ones who look like they should be in a Duran Duran video from the 80s.

mediarek Sun 27-Oct-13 01:54:28

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TheDoctrineOfAnyFucker Fri 25-Oct-13 23:56:01

Hello Sig, did you have a nice break?

SplitHeadGirl Fri 25-Oct-13 23:42:14

Sigmund*Fraud*e, at least you have a sense of humour!!!

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Fri 25-Oct-13 23:15:34

but that's the definition of a dog pile as put forward by you - people jumping on a wrong or offensive statement. The sample given was "that song is retarded".

SigmundFraude Fri 25-Oct-13 23:12:24

Ha, no....a few people on here think they are. Not everybody, by a long chalk. I don't very often view my statements as wrong or offensive, probably a handful in 5 (or more) odd years of posting.

FloraFoxForAnyFucker Fri 25-Oct-13 23:03:24

Well at least you are recognising your statements as wrong and offensive sig

SigmundFraude Fri 25-Oct-13 22:14:44

*Example 4 of dogpile, obviously.

SigmundFraude Fri 25-Oct-13 22:12:46

No. More like this:

SigmundFraude Fri 25-Oct-13 22:10:43

'Just asking as I can't get over the level of self-loathing if so.'

Lets just say I have an awareness of my own privilege, and don't find myself particularly wanting. I also have agency. Nothing to do with self-loathing. I quite like myself and would happily shack up me smile

youretoastmildred Fri 25-Oct-13 22:10:25

The dog piles? like this?

SplitHeadGirl Fri 25-Oct-13 21:47:52

Is Sigmund a woman?? Really?? Just asking as I can't get over the level of self-loathing if so.

Back on topic, I lived in Asia some years ago (Vietnam) and met a woman who had taught for years in Japan. She had loved it there, and said the women were very forward-thinking.

In Vietnam it was the women who were the breadwinners...they did everything!!! They looked after the home, worked in the fields, cared for the children, swept the streets, collected bins, cooked in the cafes....the men sat about drinking beer or green tea and watching television.

No wonder I am a feminist.

AutumnMadness Fri 25-Oct-13 21:03:44

There is also a rather fascinating documentary on the same topic on the BBC Iplayer. I watched it today. At least in how they presented it, it seemed that Japan is a prime example of what happens when social mores do not change. Change is life and stagnation is death. Japan, with all its technology, is a futuristic society, but underneath it all are the same social attitudes that were around in the 1950s and earlier.

Some things of course have changed. Japanese women can now be educated and some are lucky to even break through the glass ceiling. This gives them freedom and probably a reasonably affluent lifestyle. Why would they want to exchange this for a lifetime of cleaning and cooking while never seeing their husbands who work all hours? Why would they want to give up their affluence and support a family with children and elderly dependents on just one man's salary?

As for the men - I can see how the pressure to be the breadwinner is a disincentive to marry and procreate. Especially in the society where so much virtual sex is available. The men in the documentary also seemed to want a particular kind of woman - domestic, subservient, always cheerful - and I doubt that the young independent Japanese women fancy playing this role, especially when it comes at a cost of their freedom and finances.

So physics is there, but lyrics are lacking. Traditional gender roles are very difficult to squeeze into the new technological and educational environment. No wonder people are not bothering with all the shoehorning.

The whole thing is really fascinating.

SigmundFraude Fri 25-Oct-13 20:49:34

Some reading on the 'grass eaters phenomenon'. Although thoroughly depressing in a lot of ways, I do applaud their determination, and understand where they're coming from.

TeiTetua Fri 25-Oct-13 20:29:20

There's another article on the BBC website, titled "The Japanese men who prefer virtual girlfriends to sex":

"One reason for the lack of babies is the emergence of a new breed of Japanese men, the otaku, who love manga, anime and computers - and sometimes show little interest in sex."

SigmundFraude Fri 25-Oct-13 19:39:12

I should say, be bothered with it just lately.

SigmundFraude Fri 25-Oct-13 19:38:12

'Sigmund hasn't been back, I see. maybe can't quite face standing up for the "marriage is invented by women to exploit men, ahhh diddums" thesis'

It's more to do with the fact that I simply cannot be bothered to argue with anyone about it, the dog piles, the scathing retorts. It gets wearing. You wouldn't know about this.

SigmundFraude Fri 25-Oct-13 19:32:52

'It must be easy to feel negative towards sexual contact with men if men around you grope, harass and get off to little anime girls, robots and rape porn.'

The women, of course, are perfect.

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