Quiverfulls! I've heard it all now...(73 Posts)
"Campbell believes that many women have forgotten their biological, and for her, God-given function. "He created her with a womb. And in fact that's the most distinguishing characteristic of a woman. In the American Webster's 1928 dictionary, it says that woman is combination of two words: womb and man. She is a womb-man."
Hey wimmin can I join the chat, please?
I saw all this quiverful stuff yesterday (not this thread, not sure where I found it) but I started reading and stayed up late just fascinated and horrified!
I took a look at this and it was very scary!
I'm an evangelical Christian, a feminist, an accepting Christian (not against gay marriage), also a bit charismatic, a bit contemplative and a bit liberal! The bit I read onto was about stay at home daughters! I was shocked, I thought we had moved forward and I feel very, very sad we ('womanhood') appear to be going backwards.
TwasBrillig can I ask which church you go to now (if any), please? Just curious.
I watched Deborah 13: Servant of God
I found some comments very sad, the mum referred to a school as an orphanage.
I found the girl very well-rounded for some of it, although of course coming out with utter crap like you belong to your father. But I think the other stuff like not necessarily knowing who Brittney Spiers is, well I think she may be better off for that! I think she sounded very courageous for such a young woman. I mean I don't agree with all she said by any means but she seems a very 'together' person. She goes up to total stranger and speaks to them about God. I don't think she is doing that because of fear but because of bravery.
I was gob smacked at the puppet show, a very sad image of God to give a bunch of children. Matthew (her brother) seemed very kind and caring, lining up different experiences for her like shopping in a big shopping centre.
I just hope she will get the chance to go away to college too!
I just felt sad watching it and seeing it is so much about judgement. I also felt Deborah softened to her brothers uni friends and was pretty much up for the activities she went for. She also seemed to be thinking things through for herself at the disco, was it right to dance etc. I think she was pretty courageous. I just wish she could appreciate the amazing young woman she is. I mean as 13 year old (totally non-religious person) I would have been terrified to go away to uni and go to a night club etc! So whatever I might think of her very fixed and fundamentalist views she came across as a very powerful and strong young woman.
I totally disagree with all the stereotypical roles of men and women!
Sorry back to the stay at home daughters... I found this very distressing...
Stay at home daughters is totally crazy!
re the etymology, utter garbage. If you are not an English speaker how does the whole womb-man thing work? A bit like the nonsense around 'man-agement' or 'his-story'
I'm glad the false etymology has already been dealt with. Not that the real etymology is all that great from our perspective. I prefer the etymology of "lady" (ultimately derived from a word meaning "bread-baker, I won't bore you with the details).
I seem to remember discussing the Quiverfull movement a while back - a very large family somewhere in America, I think.
Anyway, I get the impression that the goal isn't so much spiritual fulfilment (ha!) for these women, but mostly the idea is to outbreed the Muslims or whoever the target group of xenophobia is, possibly also to provide a large number of conservative voters, so that things don't get too liberal.
Btw I think it surely must be crucial for relationships - let alone parenting - if both people talk. A major issue with this kind of relationship is the implication that women have a distinct role to play with their children, that men couldn't fulfill.
LRD, thanks for the explanation.
Sure grimble - I'm easily that open minded
Thanks for being understanding, grimble.
juggling - wiki tells me the name comes from a hostage-situation robbery in Stockholm. It's not exclusive to women's experiences - it describes any situation where a captive/abused person bonds with their captor/abuser.
Juggling: as an open minded person - how about contemplating what aspects of discipline might work if it was applied by the wife to the husband?
No, I realise the discipline relates to the woman's role in the management of the home. I'm just guessing really though from the term "domestic discipline" Like everything the effect would depend on how it was interpreted by the couple, but it doesn't sound a very helpful idea I agree.
Wondering what "Stockholm syndrome" is. I thought Stockholm was quite a progressive place, so interesting it would have that name ?
Basically a weird sort of crossover of DV, surrendered wives and BDSM with some extreme Stockholm syndrome going on.
Oh - are you thinking the discipline applies to the children? Because its applied to the wife
I was just interested in the concept of "domestic discipline" presumably somewhat imposed on the wife by her husband. I'm sure there would be lots of problems with this, but as is my way I was perhaps trying to see if there could be aspects of it that might work for some couples.
My DD laughs at me (gently) for seeing every side of things - and calls me agnostic, which I always think is an interesting way for her to think of it - basically am one of life's fence sitters. As someone once said "There's a good view from up here" - even if you get a sore bum from balancing on the edge.
HTH to somewhat explain my thinking there Yoni.
Juggling was that aimed at me or a different Yoni? I'm not disagreeing I'm just confused as to how it relates to my post.
Sunny That's one of the things that made the documentary I mentioned so awful - it focused on the very close relationship the 13 yr old DD had with her older brother, who I thought from the film was likely gay.
The boys seemed to be able to go to university or college. Some of the older female siblings had already been married off and had families of their own. I was stunned that a Christian subculture like that existed in the UK. They were YECs too.
I think the doc has made it onto Documentary Heaven if anyone is interested.
Just thinking though Yoni that if you're at home looking after small children it is good if your DH asks about your day when he gets in. So, I'm just saying that I can see how him taking an interest in your life, and even making some contribution to organising it could sometimes be OK for some people. Better than just being completely ignored and living independent lives from each other.
All very controversial I know.
And of course taking an interest doesn't actually have to mean taking over, it could be done in a much more equal way, and that would always be better.
The thing is too that sometimes (not always I know, but there's enough of a correlation for it to be concerning) these religious fundamentalist ideas overlap with the surrendered wife kind of principle and even something called "domestic discipline" which is real and happening now, in the UK. I can't work out whether there's a fetishistic aspect to that one because a lot of the blogs etc stray into clear spanking fetish territory, but if you actually read through the justifications etc (the women often sound totally happy about being there ) it seems less like a sexual thing and more like a genuine belief that women are like children
or pets and "need" training/correcting. But the mighty husband of course needs no such thing and knows exactly what is best for her. I find it quite terrifying and very very sad.
S'ok LRD - when I re-read it I realised how it must have read. That's the trouble with the net - nuances or intonations just don't come over sometimes
I wonder what happens if the woman can't have children? Or if any of their children are gay, or want to go to university?
And the defining things about a woman are not just those that distinguish her from a man are they .....
They are things, common to human-kind, such as having a large brain, using tools, developing language, the dependance of our young at birth & raising our young for a long period before they become independent, living in social groups, developing agriculture, later in the evolutionary period developing art and culture ?
Just going off on one a bit, grimble, sorry!
fair that sounds awfully sad.
Ughhhhhhh just Uggggggghhhhhhhhhh religion to me is the sky fairy promising everlasting pain if you don't do things his/her way. In case you can't guess I am not religious. So we have many religions all of whom have the one true way and if anyone believes differently they will go to hell. I have been reading about Christian Concern (or Christian Concern for the Nation as they was known) where the CEO is a young Creationist. Watched a video of them on their site where they had been campaigning against gay marriage and were praying that the MPs would change their opinion.
I have no objection to people choosing to follow a religion but when they try to stuff it down people's throats then I get annoyed. The problem is this British Organisation has strong links to very right wing American Christian organisations that are funded by private military contractors. And they are lobbying for in local communities.
Rambling but these religious groups to me are dangerous, because many are being considered more mainstream and because they will fight on local issues and have free legal support (Christian Legal Centre) people will engage with them for short term gain which may turn into long term loss.
Still saw a wonderful cartoon where people of different religions were queuing up to get into Valhalla with Thor on the gates.
Well, it's revolting, but it's just an extreme form of the Abrahamic superstitions, which are all really about putting reproduction under male control.
Did you see a documentary a few years ago called 'Deborah 13: Servant of God'? It was about a conservative evangelical family called Drapper who had this kind of setup - although I don't know if they would call themselves part of the Quiverfull movement. They lived on a remote farm somewhere (Wales?) and HEed their children (I think they had well over 6 or so). And of course the father ran the whole show.
It focused on the 13 yr old daughter. It was totally heartbreaking because it was clear that she was extremely bright, but was being brought up with the destiny of being wife and mother - she seemed a bit ambivalent about that. And her view of God was just awful (I say that as an Anglican) - she was totally consumed by thinking about her own wickedness and had this utterly bleak view of God - no joy there at all. I found it very upsetting.
NorthernLurker, I agree, but then there is the issue of who is defining Christianity.
One of my friends who is a Roman Catholic recently moved to a new neighborhood. Her next door neighbor came over with cookies and a friendly welcome. It was not long before the neighbor asked my friend to come to her church, a well-known fundamentalist congregation in the community. My friend said that she already had a church and named a well-known Catholic church in town. Neighbor paused and then said, Well, if you decide to try Christianity, we'd be glad to have you."
Oh I forgot the BEST BIT about the BBC piece
"Like arrows in the hands of a warrior are sons born in one's youth. Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. They shall not be put to shame when they contend with their enemies in the gate."
Accompanied by the picture of the advocate mum with her 6 children 5 of whom are girls (assuming she adheres to pink for girls - not a reach there).
So, UM, 6 kids and according to the definition she has barely even started as her "quiver" currently only holds one
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