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Been out. It's not pretty out there. My feminist views are challenged tonight.

(346 Posts)
dummad Sun 27-Jan-13 01:22:29

Hello, just a quickie coz I'm a bit drunk.

I've been out tonight in a bar in town - a trendy bar. Getting to the point, I'm disappointed ladies. I'm disappointed in what I've seen. Why do young women stand around dressed up like a dog's dinners looking bored out of their minds out of choice? I'm trying very hard not to think it, but I'm on the slippery slope of thinking women don't help themselves be taken seriously when they portray themselves the way they do. I know it's about choice and whatnot, but why CHOOSE to look like little fuck toys if you don't have to? Sorry. I just find it difficult to fly the feminist flag after what I've seen tonight. It's like young women don't give a flying toss about being empowered. They all look the same - tarty, vacuous and vacant. ALL of them. Hundreds of them. There wasn't one young lady in the place tonight without a horrendously short skirt on and killer heals. One group got out of the taxi and had garters tattood around her upper thigh. The men in the queue outside hardly batted an eyelid but one was there making sort of animal gestures to them like he was in a zoo. Maybe that's the sort of reaction these girls wanted.

In the bar guys couldn't even be bothered to approach the women by the looks of it. For two hours we were in there and I didn't see any notable, interaction between the sexes. Of course you'll never get a guy complaining about the way the girls look - they just lap it all up from a distance - it's all just laid out for them and saves the entry fee into the local lap dancing club I guess. They don't give a shit. Sluttier the better in their view. Why the hell don't women today backlash against it? I'd understand if it were a few of them like that but it was all of them. I'm sure they're intelligent, well bought up girls as well. So can't blame it on ignorance/ upbringing or whatever. They are a fucking disgrace.

You know what - I want you to put me right. I want you to tell me I'm wrong and there is hope and that women are aspiring for empowerment and campaign that they are respected as equals. It's up to them isn't it? They are the next generation after all. Don't they honestly care about their place in society? Don't they want to improve things like misrepresentation in the media and violence against women and lower wages etc? Don't they want to be taken seriously? Is this what has happened when women are contented? Is this what we choose to be by default? If so, it's no wonder men look down on us.

Narked Sun 27-Jan-13 14:14:45


And I hope it's not 'killer heals.' I need to buy a lamp.

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 14:16:00

Their appearance doesn't prompt a strong response from me. I've grown up around women who dress that way, am related to many and have lived in towns where that kind of look is popular. It is completely ordinary and how these women and men interact when they are at work, at home or in smaller gatherings is no different from the interactions between people who dress in other ways.

amillionyears Sun 27-Jan-13 14:20:56

How old would you say the young women were, dummad?

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 14:25:23

and again, it really depends what sort of bar/club you are going to.

younger adults tend to be alot more experimental with clothes than they will be in ten years time.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Sun 27-Jan-13 14:30:07

The cognitive dissonance going on on this thread...

Victim blaming, judging by the surafce, mocking women for their appearance, using misogynist language. Just horrible, nothing to do with feminism at all.

dummad Sun 27-Jan-13 14:34:37

So in one way you are saying it's the media making decisions for us and then say we're empowered to make our own. Which is it?

If it's the media, boycott it. You know a magazine will close down in two months if nobody bought the thing. We get the media we deserve. It wouldn't be difficult to stop the pressure if we stuck together. But the purpose just ain't there.

I agree we are judged. That's not just women, everyone. This will never why not think carefully about the image we are portraying, of our true sentiments and consider the consequences? I don't object to women's choices. We are free to do what we want. But if what we want is to advertise a one dimensional chatacteur of ourselves we can't then go screeching our eyes out when we're not given the credibility we deserve when we want it. And freya only because you were out doing it ten years ago it doesn't mean it's right. It just seems to be the norm now and a trend that's growing.

We should look at ourselves and our conduct before we blame men for inequality. It's in our hands actually. That was my initial argument. We just need to get the right message out. And that's not happening.

AbigailAdams Sun 27-Jan-13 14:35:23

Wow! The awful language used to describe women on the thread made me think I'd walked into an MRA site. Shows how internalised misogyny is.

OP you don't appear to have any feminist views to question.

Narked Sun 27-Jan-13 14:40:50

'you don't appear to have any feminist views to question'

grin One might think that AA.

MiniTheMinx Sun 27-Jan-13 14:42:09

I agree, it's as much down to us as it is men.

It seems women are being sold the lie that the route to empower is actually to conform to patriarchal gender stereotypes of what women should look like.

domesticgodless Sun 27-Jan-13 14:42:50


Agree drummad's language really doesn't help here. But there is a point to be made.

I work in a university and the routine display of women's bodies amazes me. Even in freezing weather it is now apparently mandatory to wear hotpants, usually with tights. Semi see through leggings worn with no knickers, etc. I expect that the girls involved would be shocked if they were told that they are 'putting themselves on display'. They are just trying to look 'good' and normal for their peer group.

What amazes me is that the exact opposite is happening with the boys as far as I can see. As female clothing gets tighter and more revealing all the time, boys increasingly slob around in big baggy trousers and hoodies (although there is the emo skinny jeans thing :D)

Fashion,, the less availability of 'ungendered' and less 'sexy' cuts and types of clothing, celebrity culture and magazines are what these young people have been sold from their earliest opinion-forming years. It's totally normal to them. We don't get the 'media we deserve' if we've been indoctrinated.

MiniTheMinx Sun 27-Jan-13 14:42:53


AmandaCooper Sun 27-Jan-13 14:43:03

Wow again with the victim blaming. I agree that this is a vile thread. Women of whatever age should be absolutely entitled to go out and express their sexuality in whatever way makes them feel good about themselves, whether that way conforms with media images of what is attractive or is less conventional. We shouldn't have to dress a certain way to gain respect from the OP or anyone else, unless we're in a business setting or similar.

And what having three businesses has to do with anything I can't even begin to imagine!

FlorriesDragons Sun 27-Jan-13 14:43:52

I have been known to wear short dresses on nights out. I'm still a feminist. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 14:44:08

" But if what we want is to advertise a one dimensional chatacteur of ourselves "

can you explain why the outfits you saw last night = 1 dimensional women and the ones people wear on a wednesday morning to do the bank lodgement/chemist run/grocery shopping dont?

i am really struggling to understand why you feel these outfits suddenly mean the women in them have no brains in their heads, tongues in their mouths or personalities? it is you that has chosen to decide this for these women.

i dont see why these women are any less valid in a skirt than they are in jeans. they are the same people! they have the same jobs, the same life histories, the same families, the same life goals.

domesticgodless Sun 27-Jan-13 14:44:25

To be clearer- as these young people do not see any alternatives and indeed all other alternatives are 'uncool' and 'old-fashioned', how can they be expected to rediscover feminism and alternatives? The fact that ANY of them do should be celebrated. They have lived through a dreadful backlash and they are reflecting that. It is not their fault(s).

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 14:47:16

The mid nineties was twenty years ago (although it is hard to believe twenty years ago!). People know some people will judge them, but these women don't feel judged by the people they spend time with. I went out with my dad and my teenage son to the theatre in Newcastle. It was winter and it was really cold. The streets were full of men and women in summer clothes, and lots of women were wearing tiny revealing outfits. Newcastle is famed for it. But my dad, myself and my teenage son were not judging these women as one dimensional because we know plenty of women who dress like that so we have no reason to assume that they are one dimensional.

If anyone is judging anybody as one dimensional based on their clothes, they need to either stop judging people or make friends with a wider variety of people so that they don't need to make assumptions about people based on their clothing.

What I want to achieve in society is not a situation where women are not allowed to express sexuality through clothing. The vast majority of women are sexual and express it in a variety of ways, including through clothes for some women. There is no way I am going to stop being a sexual person in public simply because some people can only accept women if they act as if they are all asexual at all times, with the exception of when they are with their lover in private. Anybody who does want society to do that is behaving as if society is some kind of jealous husband trying to make all women hide their sexuality. I am not married to society, and if I was, it sounds like an abusive relationship.

SplitHeadGirl Sun 27-Jan-13 14:47:20

So what if young women choose to dress this way! What is it to do with you? Why can't you mind your business and leave them to it? And for you to judge people based on clothes is laughable and puts you right up there with rape apologists. I dressed like that for years when I was younger...around the time I worked overseas for two years as a volunteer medic. Around the time I was campaigning for animal welfare. Around the time I took on a new job working with addicts and homeless people. Around the time I married and started a family.

MiniTheMinx Sun 27-Jan-13 14:49:47

I agree with domesticgodless This situation is a reflection of gendered society. I think young women are under pressure to conform in order to fit in with their peers. I don't see that as empowerment actually. I don't give a rats arse what people wear and make no value judgements about peoples clothing. But then I am not compelled to perform a narrowly defined and rigid performance of ultra feminine.

FreyaSnow Sun 27-Jan-13 14:50:07

The alternatives aren't uncool or old fashioned. There are plenty of young women going to alternative clubs and pubs and dressing in a kind of gender blending, contemporary hipster way. People like different things, as they always have done.

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 14:50:52

domestic i really have to disagree with you on the lack of ungendered clothing. in the past 2 years alone i have seen a massive increase in men and women wearing exactly the same type of trousers and shirts as each other. think chinos, denim shirts (both buttoned up to the neck!), toms, skinny jeans, converse, and just to prove how wrong you are, think of those fluroescent muscle vest type tops that were in a few summers ago that men wore with nothing underneath and women wore with vest tops underneath. there is also an increase in the depth of neck lines on men's shirts and jumpers. think very deep Vs showing their chests that they've had waxed and tanned and built up with the weights before a night out! grin

FlorriesDragons Sun 27-Jan-13 14:52:20

Agree with the deep v-necks on men. Some of the men at my gym show more cleavage than their wives on nights out.

MooncupGoddess Sun 27-Jan-13 14:52:43

So, OP, you are saying that women who dress in skimpy clothing have no right to equality? Do you see the problems with that argument?

Booyhoo Sun 27-Jan-13 14:54:29

and men's shorts have become alot shorter again than the surfer type they were for a long time.

JustAHolyFool Sun 27-Jan-13 14:55:00

So women can only have feminist views/a personality/a degree of intelligence if they're wearing? What? Jeans and a jumper?

Dromedary Sun 27-Jan-13 14:55:08

At our local university's annual ball the women all wore underwear (yes, just bras and pants). Women put on a pole dancing display. And a couple stripped off and had sex in the student bar. And these are supposedly the brightest and the best of their generation.

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