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Good piece on sex work by Laurie Penny

(498 Posts)
SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Thu 20-Dec-12 15:43:42

Here. She puts it a bit more elegantly than I usually do...

rosabud Thu 17-Jan-13 07:17:51

The mysogyny is in the fact that he described her working clothes using the word "naughty" which implies something wrong, illicit, not right - see my comments above.

DadDancer Thu 17-Jan-13 13:13:02

Ah rosabad see you are still up to your old tricks of dissecting someones post, taking a snippet from it and then turning it into something different to what they originally meant.

I think when someone says 'Naughty' underwear. clothes, it's just another term for sexy underwear or saucy underwear, you know like something you would buy from Ann Summers or La Senza to spice things up a bit. Nothing more to it than that.

oh, and hi Sabrina, i can't remember now but did you say you worked in the industry or not? I am always amazed by the amount of knowledge you claim to have on these matters. Oh and have you mentioned Swedish male prostitutes yet? 20,000 of them apparently and they outweigh the females by 2:1. Having googled a few links regarding Swedish prostitution, it doesn't quite look as rosy as you are making it out be.

rosabud Thu 17-Jan-13 13:38:31

I'm afraid "nothing more to it than that" is rather a naive phrase when it comes to language as is probably proven by the advertising industry who spend millions on finding just the right word. However, thankyou for pointing out the bleeding obvious that "naughty" meant sexy or saucy clothes. The point is, of course, that the very word itself implies that there is something wrong with these types of clothes - do you see? (Hammers the point home with a rather blunt instrument - only to find, in this case, an extra plank obstructing further enlightenment)

And while we're on the subject of words/phrases/language we all use which betrays our real views and attitudes, we could have a field day with the fact that you think I am "up to" my "old tricks." Couldn't we? wink

MiniTheMinx Thu 17-Jan-13 14:48:19

grin hands Rosa a 14lb hammer

I have often thought about this issue with "naughty" clothes. Doesn't really seem to matter what you call this clothing and by this I mean clothing that men fetishize about. What is it, if it isn't that men are able to impose their subconscious hang ups on to what women wear. They first decide throughout history what is and isn't acceptable clothing standards, then impose a moral narrative to back that up and finally they use this to excuse their reaction to it. No one asked men to have double standards.....where did they come from? Church or state or something else?

RunawayHorses Thu 17-Jan-13 16:09:14

Is it not time we lost this thread? It has veneered off subject and appears to be a point scoring thread between a few members. It is getting rather tedious seeing this particular thread dominating feminism/women's rights chat every day.
Why bother wasting your time arguing the toss with Leithlurking OldLady Fran? Charlizee / Daddancer? They are so obviously involved in the sex trade. The best thing to do is to ignore them - they will soon get bored.
Interesting how Fran? has disappeared maybe he or she has had their account closed yet again and is using the name Charlizee - both harp on about the poppy project. Whatever the name changing thing is all about can we not indulge them. Just ignore them and let them argue between themselves.

katiemummy2012 Thu 17-Jan-13 19:06:20

il have you know iv had friends who'd DD's has been groomed by asian sex gangs, that is nothing whatsoever to do with 'prostitution' in the sense of what my DH was doing and adultwork, thats more a cultural issue than anything else and is another thread altogether

very straw clutching, il read the other messages now xx

GunsAndRoses Thu 17-Jan-13 19:59:04

"I'm not sure Katiesmummy understands what trafficking is or what happens to women trafficked for sex. Did you read the article I linked to? The prostitutes that are trafficked have their passports removed, are locked in a room and violently assaulted and raped. Threats are made to family back home to make sure they behave and they don't earn any money. It's all taken by the traffickers." I think you may be right Sabrina. Her last post is not clever or anything to brag about. I am under the impression she might be associated with Frans and Old LadyKnowsNothing. By continous posting of utter nonsense do they hope that others are going to sympathise with men that use prostitutes? It is not going to happen.

DadDancer Thu 17-Jan-13 20:02:55

The point is, of course, that the very word itself implies that there is something wrong with these types of clothes

No it doesn't, would you like me to state the obvious again?

we could have a field day with the fact that you think I am "up to" my "old tricks." Couldn't we?

Haha yeah I could have said 'up to' your 'old johns' again instead or would that be 'Naughty''? grin

MiniTheMinx Thu 17-Jan-13 20:12:01

No, I think Katie is genuine, I really do, why can't we just discuss the issue and put forward a compelling argument.

Katie, please read some of sabrina's links. In regards to AW and the like, I am not certain that it is a true reflection on the industry. If pimps are prepared to go to the lengths they do to lock women up, to trafick them across boarders and set up pro-sex lobbying groups then what is there to say that they wouldn't put these women on AW.

When people make the case that women choose to work in prostitution you have to ask exactly how much real choice women have. If men are socialised to believe they are entitled to sex even if this means paying for it, then the opposite would be true that many young women are socialised to think that having sex for money is an empowered choice. There is no disputing that some women do choose to do it. But we can't think outside of the social reality in which we live. We try which is why we have feminism.

katiemummy2012 Thu 17-Jan-13 21:17:20

how on earth was I bragging!? I mentioned that I've had personal experiences with friends and her teenage DD being groomed by gangs of older pakistani men, I dont see how mentioning that it is nothing to do with the type of thing my DH was doing is bragging? Many people agree all that is cultural issues, its not a sex industry issue at all, you'd know that if you knew more about it

and yes I am genuine I was giving my honest opinion and the only thing you can do is acuse me of being another poster? I dont agree with prostitution as it destroys families but I dont believe for a second they are all abused, neither do numerous other people it seems too!

check this, punter murdered and robbed by prostitute:

shame it wasnt my DH, but seems the boots on the other foot this time!

katiemummy2012 Thu 17-Jan-13 21:26:16

Minimix I do agree with what you are saying to an extent, but what about people who have no choice than to make themselves ill working god awful long hours in factories etc, exploitation in the workplace and inequality of women in capitalism is the starting point, not this issue we are debating here

until something changes where women can make decent money without working in the sex industry (its a sad truth that many jobs for women that are well paid are to do with sexuality, models, porn stars, strippers etc), then there is always going to be women selling their sexuality whether its illegal or not

Where would you draw the line in selling sex? As a young woman I really wanted to date a rich man, I met a much older well off man in my early 20s and we dated for a while, and looking back what attracted me most was his money and that I knew being with him would bring stability, nice holidays, a nice house etc. It didnt work out but how common do you think this situation is? When you see fat old mingers like Donald Trump married to beautiful young models, you see what is nothing more than socially acceptable prostitution

No normal guy that looks and acts like DT would end up with a gorgeous young woman, loads of women marry well off men who they might not click sexually with etc, but because its under the guise of 'love' its ok?

What about sugar daddy arrangements? Im finding this quite an interesting debate really and find it lets off my steam a bit xx

Charlizee Fri 18-Jan-13 01:28:12

I can't believe some of us are trying to imply using the word "naughty" to describe a sexy/saucy outfit is "misogynist".

"check this, punter murdered and robbed by prostitute"

It's not common but it can and does happen. Sometimes women who aren't sex workers at all advertise sex services and then turn up with a male friend and rob the client at knifepoint. I've heard of this stuff.

Expect it to happen a lot more if prostitution is criminalized and pushed underground since then people will be less willing to go to the police. This puts everyone involved at more risk (the sex workers and the clients).

MiniTheMinx Fri 18-Jan-13 09:05:48

Katie, yes I agree, everyone who sells their labour for wages is exploited. Under capitalism the most disadvantaged women are working class women. Which is why I think it won't matter what laws we have. I don't however share the view that the industry should be legalised and made more "acceptable" which is what some on the left are calling for. The thing is there will always be those who argue that it is a free choice to do "sex work" how free that choice is under capitalism is debatable.

Your second point about socially acceptable prostitution, is absolutely bang on. Engles proposed that marriage and prostitution are two sides of the same coin. There has always been a debate about how women use their sexuality to economic advantage and women do indeed have greater mobility under the class system. Middle class women have traditionally suffered very different problems to that of working class women.

If you are interested in how women are oppressed under capitalism I would recommend reading anything by Sharon Smith

Charlizee Fri 18-Jan-13 14:34:49

As already mentioned. Escorts (who make up the majority of sex workers in the UK) can typically earn £150 an hour.

So who is being exploited here? The escort who works 4 hours a week (from her own home if she wishes) or the guy who gets up at 6am to travel to his shitty 9-5 job 5 days a week and doesn't get home until 8pm at night for £6 an hour to be treated like shit from his boss?

Charlizee Fri 18-Jan-13 20:02:18

"The Irish government is currently leading a consultation of a proposed bill to criminalise sex workers’ clients. However, no current sex worker has been allowed to participate in the hearings."

Is there any other job where laws are passed regarding it without consulting anyone who actually works in it?

Gigabot9k Fri 18-Jan-13 20:10:57

Sex workers are still seen as empty headed whores who aren't worth consulting with; any opinion they have is immediately pushed aside.

Dr Brooke Magnanti is probably more intelligent and has greater understanding of the world of sex work than all the people in this forum or on any committee.

But, she's a stupid whore, apparently.

Charlizee Fri 18-Jan-13 21:46:40

"Sex workers are still seen as empty headed whores who aren't worth consulting with; any opinion they have is immediately pushed aside."

That seems to be the case. And clearly politicians think they know more about prostitution than the sex workers themselves and are qualified to speak on their behalf and exclude them from law making process.

Charlizee Fri 18-Jan-13 21:47:42

Dr Brooke Magnanti probably knows more about the sex industry than all the feminist politicians in the UK combined.

GothAnneGeddes Sun 20-Jan-13 10:23:51

Dr Brooke Magnanti probably knows profits more from the sex industry then all the feminist politicians in the UK combined.

There. Fixed it for you.

angelttc91 Sun 20-Jan-13 17:51:31

I have a friend who works in the sex industry, she was a lapdancer then moved onto escorting. She has a partner who knows what she does too, and he puts up with it! My friends never been the type to want to be at work all the time and I think that's why she does it,because she doesn't have to get up early or work very much. She earns lots more than me in a lot less time, though it is not something I'd ever do, I'd rather work long hours thanks!

She seems happy enough and is from a middle class family, her dad is loaded and she always goes on exotic holidays with him, I think she I'd happy enough with it, she earns 130 an hour so it's good money, and she has always been money orientated. Apparently escorting pays much more than stripping and the men are nicer. Probably cos they arnt drunk.

Just my two cents!

fortyplus Sun 20-Jan-13 17:57:36

Marking thread so I can read it later! Sounds really interesting.

Charlizee Mon 21-Jan-13 16:46:20

A couple of short interesting videos from this week to watch:

ITV discusses whether we should have brothels for the disabled?

Interview with current and former sex workers on the proposed law to criminalize prostitution in Ireland.

There are NO sex workers allowed at the hearings for this proposal! The change in law is being decided by people who have no experience at being a prostitute themself!

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 23-Jan-13 14:21:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Charlizee Wed 23-Jan-13 19:39:11

This is also interesting:

Oslo’s social affairs chief and top politician Anniken Hauglie (a woman) is calling for Norway's prostitution law to be ripped up because it increaseds violence against sex workers and makes things more difficult for them.

Charlizee Wed 23-Jan-13 19:42:38

"What’s more, prostitutes have become less inclined to seek help since the law came into force, with many now perceiving that they too are viewed as criminals, the report says."

And this is happening even though only the clients are criminalized. Interesting indeed.

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