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Is this the kind of crap that subtly undermines women?

(80 Posts)
duchesse Tue 13-Nov-12 09:21:25

Friend and his wife are both acknowledged authorities in their (similar) fields. Both have been separately invited to speak at something. Both have same honorary title. She always uses her own surname, has never used his.

Hotel booking when they arrived was for (for example) "Dr FirstName LastName & Mrs HisFirstName HisLastName".

Leithlurker Wed 14-Nov-12 09:28:25

Not sure since in my posts I was being generally supportive of your view LRD, where that attack comes from, or why you felt it useful to restate something I made clear up thread, namely that we are too short of information from the op to draw any seriouse conclusions as to the motivation for the slight against the status of op's friend.

My point which again you remake for me is that instead of this being a deliberate act by some hotel clark, we have a deeper more problematic issue. My reading against the op is in fact partly true, not to deny anything but to prevent lazy assumptions and to offer alternative sources of the problem. You seem to have me down as some kind of f4j type. Whatever.

It just seems to me that a lot of older people can't cope with anyone deviating from the accepted Mrs Dhsurname format. My mum is completely accepting in theory of the fact that I still use Ms Ownsurname but she can't seem to write it on an envelope unless it is only to me (eg a birthday card, she does get those right. Anything jointly addressed she puts myfirstname and hisfirstname hissurname, saying that it isn't technically wrong, I find it very annoying that she can be bothered with his surname but not mine. If it is to save time she could drop the firstnames and use initials.

LRDtheFeministDragon Wed 14-Nov-12 09:33:16

leith - sorry if it felt like an attack. I felt your comment was a bit of a put-down to the whole thread, TBH.

It just feels depressing when someone insists on twisting even a fairly obviously sexist situation and saying it can't be sexist, and the situation must be different from what the OP posted. sad

I don't get it.

ZombieOnABicycle Wed 14-Nov-12 09:35:09

I had a weird one when on a business trip with my male colleague. I called up to book two rooms, one for me and one for him - we'd often work together so we always took turns booking the rooms. We turned up late one Sunday evening, only to be told that 1 room had been booked for both of us in the name or Mr and Mrs His Name.

We were both in relationships, and were not impressed at having been assumed that as I was making the booking we were a couple.

After much arguing and dragging the hotel manager out of bed we eventually were given two separate rooms. I was shocked beyond belief.

And will never stay at a Novotel again as we didn't even get an apology

Leithlurker Wed 14-Nov-12 09:37:22

I accept your apology, and thank you for it. I do not know what it is you "do not get" I admitt freely that my writing style can be confusing.

LRDtheFeministDragon Wed 14-Nov-12 09:41:15

I don't understand why you're so keen to insist the OP's situation must be different from what she says or why you think it's important to insist it mustn't be 'deliberate sexism'.

Leithlurker Wed 14-Nov-12 09:55:05

You think we should just stop talking LRD as it seems for the moment we are not being particularly effective at it. For example I now do not understand why you think my "insistence" that the hotel clark did not set out to be sexist, when you said the exact same thing up thread. So it would appear that again we are both saying that sexism does happen, and that the issue lies elsewhere other than with one clark in one hotel.

If I am disputing what went on, it is because we have a third hand account of a conversation. I offered alternatives, becouse it's just to damn lazy to always assume that the only solution to everything is sexism, are scientists and people in general not supposed to analyse information? K see Im now arguing with you and that is not what I wanted as its gonna postpone me getting on with my day.

Be Well everyone, especialy you LRD

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 14-Nov-12 09:57:05

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

colditz Wed 14-Nov-12 10:04:03

You haven't even got a penis, frankly you're lucky they let you sleep in a bed.

LRDtheFeministDragon Wed 14-Nov-12 10:09:26

Eh? No, I don't think we should stop talking and I'm sorry you find my comments ineffective. No one is forcing you to read them.

I didn't say the 'exact same thing' as you - you're misreading my posts. I am objecting to you saying 'it's not deliberate sexism' as if that's relevant, because I don't believe it is. If you disagree, fair enough, but please don't pretend I said the 'same thing' upthread when I didn't.

You're not just 'offering alternatives' - you're insisting the OP (silly woman, doesn't know what she's talking about) must be wrong. And you, who know nothing about the situation, must be right. And why? Because in your version, no-one is ever sexist and silly feminists should just shut up.

Do you not see why I might find that a tiny bit irritating and rude?

GrimmaTheNome Wed 14-Nov-12 13:34:11

<cough> I think it was me who first introduced that it was institutional rather than deliberate sexism ...which seemed relevant to me at the time.

As far as I can see everyone agrees that, and that its a worse issue... a patriarchy problem. I can't see any derailing here TBH.

LRDtheFeministDragon Wed 14-Nov-12 13:36:41

I'm not trying to disagree that it's institutional sexism.

My objection is to someone constructing straw men arguments by saying 'oh, but it isn't deliberate', as if that were relevant. None of us thinks it is, do we?

To juxtapose that with an insistence that, in fact, the OP is inaccurate and some other made-up event involving no sexism at all must instead have happened, does get me wondering about the intentions behind the post.

I didn't see it as similar to you say it's institutional sexism, because you didn't follow up your comment with a claim that it also probably didn't happen.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 14-Nov-12 19:45:01

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MyCannyBairn Thu 15-Nov-12 06:32:59

We got a letter from our council recently regarding a house we own, it was addressed to Mr Bairn. Both of our names are on everything official. It made me rageful, flaming furious * clutches pinny tightly *. I'd owned the house for years before there was a Mr Bairn.

ChunkyPickle Thu 15-Nov-12 07:12:35

DP and I recently rented a house. I say we, but actually the rental people had only ever met, or spoken to me (DP trusts my opinion, so didn't even visit the place before we signed up).

When the paperwork arrived, it was all in his name first. I corrected it, put myself as primary contact etc.

EVERY email/letter/bill signup/important 'you must reply within 72 hours for council tax things' letter, EVERYTHING came addressed to him. Which could have been a problem since he went abroad for a month the day after we moved in (the rental agent knew this too). Luckily we freely open each other's mail so I could sort it all out - but they got more than one rather forceful email (and my relatives got a fair few rants) on the stupidity of the situation.

ChunkyPickle Thu 15-Nov-12 07:13:57

I forgot my point. Yes, it is institutional sexism I think, but that doesn't excuse in any way. I make a point of ticking Ms (or adding it if it's not there) these days, and cheerfully correcting anyone who assumes anything regarding my marital status.

OverlyWordyHurdyGurdy Thu 15-Nov-12 07:21:36

When we bought our house, I put my name first on every form (I know, I know, presumptuous!) - mortgage, insurance, everything. Every single letter that came back swapped our names round so that DH was first.

It actually used to make our mortgage advisor twitch. You could tell he felt a bit sorry for my poor hen-pecked DH. To add insult to injury, English isn't his first language, which is why I always negotiate complex forms etc. But still, rather a man with not great English than a fluent speaking woman, eh.

Tbf, his native country is even worse. I have some shockers.

AmandaCooper Thu 15-Nov-12 07:22:00

A gay male friend and a mutual female friend shared a twin room at a Premier Inn for a wedding and the hotel insisted on referring to her as Mrs HisSurname all weekend, despite them disclosing several times information about their respective personal lives that were none of the hotel's business.

duchesse Thu 15-Nov-12 09:14:15

I don't think it's at all deliberate, and actually I think that's worse, because if it's unthinking it looks a lot more like the cultural norm, which is what our children and young people are learning. It being unthinking rather than appearing crass and deliberate actually perpetuates it.

YoullScreamAboutItOneDay Thu 15-Nov-12 09:40:42

I am Mrs HisName. Unusually I guess for a feminist, I changed my name. I wanted us and any future children to share a name. We did think about double barrelling or using my name, but neither was aesthetically pleasing and I just couldn't be bothered to go further and find a whole new name - especially since I knew our families would feel that was a rejection of them.

It didn't occur to be to be Ms HisName at the time, and I might do it more in future.

I am not Mrs HisInitial Hissurname, nor am I Mrs Hisfirstname Hissurname.

And just because I made a particular choice does not mean others have. I would be furious if I had experienced what the OPs friend had. And if I had a doctorate I'd bloody use it - all the time, even amongst friends grin <far too lazy to ever have one>

Startail Thu 15-Nov-12 09:47:23

Mrs DH's name surname makes me angry

I took his surname because we married as students and it seemed easier to start adult life with minimum concussion.

We both come from traditional families and my maiden name is a pita to spell.

However, I am still me and I'm still female I'm not "mrs John Smith"

I mean I'm sure there are Johns with tits and a vagina, but I haven't met them yet.

Startail Thu 15-Nov-12 09:47:54


duchesse Thu 15-Nov-12 09:49:55

startail smile

lollystix Thu 15-Nov-12 09:54:36

Dh has only once attended Ds2's nursery yet every bill is directed to him. I signed all the forms and am the primary person in that respect yet they did ask for father's name. On that basis they make the assumption that he pays. Pisses me off as I earn more than DH!

AmandaCooper Thu 15-Nov-12 18:09:07

you'llscreamaboutit I don't think it's unusual for a feminist.

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