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Grrr. Guardian article on rape in pubs and clubs.

(62 Posts)
LRDtheFeministDragon Thu 11-Oct-12 08:28:10

Oh, damn. angry

I was just reading this article and thinking, great, this sounds like a good idea. They're planning to target pubs and clubs where high levels of rape and sexual assault are reported, to shut them down. Great. Then I hit this line, which is one of their aims:

'• A hard-hitting prevention campaign to target male behaviour and speak to women about reducing their vulnerability.'

Fuck the fuck off, will you?!

LRDtheFeministDragon Sat 13-Oct-12 22:10:33

Amen to that.

ledkr Sat 13-Oct-12 22:05:43

Too late it was 7 years ago. It's men who need educating to respect women and not see them as perspective shags, that education comes from home and society. See us as people and stiff like that would reduce drastically

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sat 13-Oct-12 21:59:06

Ledkr I'm so sorry.

Roger I think a number of women have been raped or assaulted by a male friend or acquaintance who offered to walk them home. I think your buddy system plan is a good one to reduce road accidents though.

LRDtheFeministDragon Sat 13-Oct-12 21:48:04

God, that's horrible.

I would think you still could report it? I think even if it's a long time ago, you could.

I think the Savile stuff is bringing up demons for lots of people.

ledkr Sat 13-Oct-12 21:45:45

Thanks, it's funny but its been ony mind a lot recently with the savile stuff my dh had helped me loads to get my head around it. The staff seemed to just assume I was a drunk woman who didn't know what I was saying they put me on a taxi home whilst I was sobbing,these was a fireman on a stag do I so wish I'd called the police

LRDtheFeministDragon Sat 13-Oct-12 21:36:01

That's awful, ledkr. I'm so sorry.

I do think staff at clubs should have the same responsibility in this area as they do with, say, fights - that seemed a really positive side of this new plan.

ledkr Sat 13-Oct-12 21:32:32

I was assaulted in a club, quite severely, the staff didn't want to know I was far from vulnerable but was treated like an idiot even my friends didn'tunderstsn how serious it was he did it to control and humiliate me I was not vulnerable

LRDtheFeministDragon Sat 13-Oct-12 21:30:55

I don't see how that's a good thing, though?

If the net result is women who're vulnerable in other ways get raped, all we're doing is making a slight change to the demographics of who's most likely to get raped. It feels like going in circles to me. sad

The whole thing is shite.

rogersmellyonthetelly Sat 13-Oct-12 21:28:39

No, It won't eliminate sexual assaults, IMO nothing ever will. There will always be people out there who find having power over others sexually arousing, and this leads to sexual assault on both men and women, of all ages.
What it will do is reduce the incidence in pubs and clubs by reducing opportunity for such people. much easier for someone drunk, on their own to be persuaded outside where there are no witnesses, or followed home, than someone who is accompanied by a not so drunk person who is able to see the dangers.

LRDtheFeministDragon Sat 13-Oct-12 20:45:24

roger - would it 'eliminate' sexual assualts, though?

My understanding is that a lot of homeless women get raped, simply because they don't have anywhere else to go.

A 'lot' of sexual assaults happen from men who're known to the women, not strangers.

I do agree we all need advice about sensible drinking/buddy systems. And as you say, this could very helpfully include advice about how to deal with a drunk friend.

I just don't think it should be making out that it will protect women from rape. It won't.

rogersmellyonthetelly Sat 13-Oct-12 20:38:13

Personally I think that the message to both men and women alike, regardless of mental health or age should be:
How to drink responsibly.
Don't get so pissed that you don't know where you are , who you are with, and what you are doing
Stay with your group of friends and operate a buddy system so if someone is pissed out of their heads they have someone relatively coherent with them until they are safe at home in bed with a bucket propped under their heads.
Know in advance how you are getting home, and stick to it
This would not only eliminate many sexual assaults but also prevent road accidents from drunks staggering into the path of oncoming vehicles and many other alcohol related incidents which take up far too much police and ambulance/a&e time!

angryjoanna Sat 13-Oct-12 18:15:13

Hope its not too annoying to post links (is it?). Expanded thoughts here:

angryjoanna Sat 13-Oct-12 18:00:39

I too was wondering how you could change your mental health or age to become less "vulnerable". I was also baffled by the idea that revoking someone's driving license would help prevent rape:

“we don’t want them out there committing sexual offences so if they are disqualified from driving … this will help prevent rape.”


Don't drink. Don't fall over. Don't be mentally ill. Don't get raped. And if you do, it was probably your fault. Same discourse, same culture that allowed Savile to do what he did.

LRDtheFeministDragon Sat 13-Oct-12 11:11:34

Yes, namechange - there was a good result someone wrote a thread about, with the Leith police IIRC.

You can also do the slightly less faff-y thing of writing to your MP, obviously.

oaty - so why give advice on 'staying safe' at the same time as giving advice about 'not raping'? I think that's my issue. The two things could be separated - you could have campaigns about safety that weren't gendered, like those adverts about keeping valuables in your car out of sight. That would then not tangle up the issue with blaming women for getting raped.

namechangeguy Fri 12-Oct-12 13:25:04

Getting back to the OP - has anybody been in touch with the police group concerned with this project to explain to them just where they are going wrong?

samandi Fri 12-Oct-12 13:15:46

What I do mean is that alcohol blurs perceptions, and affects decision making, so a woman may make a bad decision that means she puts herself in a vulnerable position with a man, and that the man makes a bad decision that this means she is willing to be groped or have sex, when in fact, if both were in full possession of their faculties the situation would probably never arise because they would both have realised that the signs of willingness on the woman's or mans part weren't there.

Sorry, but being drunk doesn't excuse you from your culpibility when it comes to committing crimes. If you drink drive, you are responsible. If you mug someone when drunk, you are responsible. If you stab someone when drunk, you are responsible. When you sexually assault someone when drunk, you are still responsible. There is nothing magical about rape that excuses someone because they were drunk - it is still a crime.

OatyBeatie Fri 12-Oct-12 13:09:11

I think women and men need advice on staying safe. I didn't say women needed more than men. For example, if there are drunk aggressive men in the streets intent on picking a fight, other men need advice on minimising their risk of being picked on.

An example of the kind of advice that isn't victim blaming and is acceptable? How about the advice not to leave your drink unattended in environments where it might be spiked? I don't think that offering that advice remotely suggests that spiking is acceptable and shouldn't be very aggressively pursued, and I don't think that advice suggests that a woman is to blame if her drink does get spiked. Whether or not it is being offered in an acceptable way depends entirely on the surrounding context, particularly the behaviour of the advice-giver. It is acceptable advice for the police to give only if they are conscientiously pursuing offenders and doing everything they can to make the environment safe for women, and to make all aspects of crime reporting and prosecution as positive and helpful for women as possible.

DuelingFanjo Fri 12-Oct-12 12:45:10

Also - Oaty, why do you think it is just women who need advice on staying safe?

I am asking you because anyone who thinks women should take some responsibility for making themselves safe from assault should at least be able to list the ways in which they can, no?

DuelingFanjo Fri 12-Oct-12 12:43:34

Oaty - are you making a distinction between sexual Assault and rape?

"it seems acceptable and constructive for there also to be some carefully thought advice for women that avoids seeming to make them responsible for offences against them."

what carefully sthought advice would YOU think is good? To specifically stop sexual assault?

OatyBeatie Fri 12-Oct-12 12:33:18

Is the consensus here that any advice given to women on avoiding sexual assault amounts to victim blaming and is therefore wrongful?

That doesn't seem right to me. I can absolutely accept that in a culture (i.e. our culture) of victim blaming and acceptance of aggressive male sexual behaviour much of the advice given to women is problematic and a way of failing to face up to male responsibility. But it does also seem appropriate to think in terms of there being some element of appropriate advice to women. And if (a big if, I know) the police are absolutely serious and committed in their targetting of male perpetrators, it seems acceptable and constructive for there also to be some carefully thought advice for women that avoids seeming to make them responsible for offences against them.

NormaStanleyFletcher Fri 12-Oct-12 12:20:44

RE locking your door reducing vulnerability to burglary being the same as staying sober protecting you from rape...

This is not the same. If you want an equivalent way of reducing your vulnerability to rape, then you would have to wear a locking chastity belt (which would also protect your anus), plus a locking mouth cover.

LurcioLovesFrankie Fri 12-Oct-12 10:29:12

But it's the gaining of consent that matters, not the witholding. And decent men, even when pissed, can tell the difference (and importantly, care about the difference) between a woman who's joining in enthusiastically (albeit drunkenly) and a woman who's lying, frozen and in distress. And I think rapists can tell the difference too, they just don't care.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 12-Oct-12 10:27:55

Roger I understand what you mean but the message should be "if you or the person you are with are too drunk to be sure of consent, then there is no consent." it should be as strong a message as "if you are drinking, don't drive"

LurcioLovesFrankie Fri 12-Oct-12 10:19:31

Oops, cross posted!

rogersmellyonthetelly Fri 12-Oct-12 10:19:06

Sorry, maybe I should explain myself better. When I say that alcohol blurs perceptions, it makes them less likely to read te body language that we all exhibit all the time, so when I say bad decision, I mean that because of the alcohol, he may in fact not pick up that she isn't consenting, because he is too pissed to interpret things correctly. Hope this clears things up a bit, I was trying to differentiate between an assault resulting from both parties being too pissed to make good judgement calls about whether they want to have sex or not, and genuine predatory behaviour from either sex.

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