Porn

[garlicbum]

Giving this another punt, since we seem to be doing civilised controversy quite well atm :)

I used to be fairly cool about porn, though never much of a fan. Now I feel:-
? Too much bullying & exploitation is used in its making
? It promotes too many rape-like fantasies
? Sexual objectification spills over into real life
? Porn gives boys and girls weird expectations of sexual relationships.
I'm sure there's more; just typing off the top of my head.

However, I am persuaded that sexual representation in the arts is not always porn. I've seen it said the Victorians invented porn - and think I agree. It was the Victorians who simultaneously labelled sexuality "dirty" and went looking for it in secret. Women and men have always enjoyed sexy art; it wasn't porn because it wasn't considered shameful.

I believe there is still a healthy stream of sexy art, but have a hard time separating it from porn. I've no idea how one would remove the Victorians' legacy of smuttiness from our appreciation of human sexuality. Dammit.

As a feminist, what do you feel about porn? How have your ideas on it changed?

[garlicbum]

There was a bloke on a Tube, a long time ago now, who was 'reading' Page Three. As he leered over the near-naked girl in the paper, he kept looking up at me. Not my face, just my body. In that commute, I lost my tolerance of Page Three (and The Sport). I felt as though I was just a female body for the sexual titillation of a man, and that The Sun had done it to me.

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

I am always astounded that people who claim to loath porn, seem to know so much about what it portrays.

Will watch this thread with interest.

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

Sorry, just realised that my last post sounded rather snide, wasn't meant that way, just musing.

[CaramelTree]

There are lots of things to do with porn that have been covered lots of times before.

One thing I don't see covered a lot, or not well enough for me to understand, is that impact it is having on the viewer. I think somebody's internal life is hugely important to who they are. I don't think fantasy is some separate box in somebody's head, or of it is for some people, I find it hard to imagine what it is like to be that person.

But I think sometimes people will have the attitude that they watch violent porn or whatever, but they're a really lovely, sensitive person. Well who is watching the porn then? It isn't as if you are not watching it and some shadow being does it instead. You are the person watching it; that is who you are as a human being.

Now, I know there are people who watch horror films and read true crime books and so on, and there is some overlap there, but again I think it is hard to articulate what is going on there in people's internal lives, but something must be happening there.

And of course in a relationship, you do get to know somebody's internal life, that is part of intimacy, so there has to be some way of articulating what impact porn has from the perspective of the people who watch it.

[garlicbum]

I can't be the only person who hears about something, then goes to have a look for myself

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

I'm sure you're not the only one, OP, having done it myself but the stuff I found (on a simple "porn" search) was pretty vanilla and didn't look forced or exploitative. Perhaps I need better search terms? I'm certain there's Bad Stuff out there, but haven't seen any.

[garlicbum]

Your point is the most important one to me, Caramel. I think it overlaps into VR games, too. I've got some sound research on that somewhere (how the player's brain reacts to the virtual situation).

I like crime & horror fiction. Not the true life stuff, though. Many say the big difference between '70s porn and contemporary stuff is the cheesy storylines, bad music and cheap props that made porn films obviously 'not real'. Not sure I buy this, as there was still the backroom element that takes the 'healthy' out of sexuality, but I see the point they're making.

[garlicbum]

OLKN - I discovered how to search for them through accidental results when searching for images to use in work presentations!!

The default setting on search engines is 'moderate safe'. Hunters of the gruesome need to turn that off.

[CaramelTree]

Garlic, I think with some kinds of crime fiction, it is the puzzle element of it that is gripping, rather than any particular fascination with the crime itself. For other types of book, it is the violence that appeals to people.

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

[ShirleyKnot]

I think comparing art to pornography is reductive.

I can tell the difference between a beautiful, sensitive piece of art which depicts the naked female form and a pornographic piece of shit which reduces a woman to just pieces of sexually charges body parts.

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

But can you define it, Shirley?

[ShirleyKnot]

Yes, I think I can.

[garlicbum]

Go on, then Shirley! Please.

The Hohle Fels Venus and the Man of Cerne are pretty much all about their sexual body parts. (I was looking for that ancient sculpture form with an erection bigger than his body, but can't remember what he's called!) But they ain't porn. By contrast, the girl on the front page of The Sport wears knickers and her body is proportionate - but is pornographic in intent.

[CaramelTree]

Cerne's penis was made longer by the Victorians I think. It didn't use to be that big.

[garlicbum]

I think the Man of Cerne isn't hugely old anyway (not sure). But he isn't pornography.
How could I have forgotten Priapus's name?!

[solidgoldbrass]

Shirley: What about misery memoirs, and the Jeremy Kyle Show/Britain's Got Talent? What about the people who consume that sort of shit, what's that doing to their brains? On the one hand, it's reading stories of horrible suffering while considering yourself a 'caring' person (and indeed getting all snotty at people who say they'd rather stick their head in a bucket of spiders than read 'Please Daddy Not The Warm Milk Again' or whatever), or watching thick dysfunctional families eviscerate themselves and each other in front of a yelling mob.

[carernotasaint]

Solid i totally agree. I know this is changing the subject slightly but im dieting at the moment. Ive lost 1 stone 9 since the end of Feb and yesterday i had someone say to me "Well thats actually not a lot. I would have expected to lose a lot more in that space of time if it was me" I believe that this attitude is because of all these crash,fad,celebrity diets in mags and the whole celebrity culture we are living in and i cannot fucking stand it. I started off at Slimming World but left because the diet industry and this sleb culture are becoming too intertwined. Now im seeing the NHS management nurse once a fortnight and ive found this to be much more realistic and heplful. But its the comments from people who get their dietary advice from mags like Heat and Closer that really get on my nerves.

[miloben]

Sorry to go OT, but I'm confused. I watch horror films and read true crime. I also volunteer at an animal shelter, volunteered in a developing country for two years, work at a homeless shelter, am a pretty good mum to my children, and visit my elderly parents weekly. So I KNOW I am ok internally, so not really sure where the point of true crime and horror comes in. I like horror for the scares and jolts, and I like true crime as it is about real people who suffered and it's their story and all about how justice was found. TOTALLY different from porn!

[itsthequietones]

I've felt uncomfortable with porn for quite a few years. It's only recently that I started to really dislike it. It started with getting broadband in a few years ago and dh thought it would be great fun to download some porn. One he found, on a file sharing site, had a man and two women in it. It kind of looked like they were all having fun until the man started doing a sex act on the woman that obviously hurt her. She had tears in her eyes, had a very pained look on her face and the other woman was holding her hand, stroking her head and telling her that it would be over soon. Dh thought it was funny. I deleted it straight away. Dh mentioned it a few weeks ago 'oh remember that porn that you deleted, it was really funny...' He didn't once consider what the woman was going through, it was 'entertainment' as far as he was concerned. I let him know how I felt about it, but I'm not entirely sure he got it.

[thechairmanmeow]

i think it's inportant to differenceiat between porn and erotica.
nudes and images of people having sex will arouse, i'm not suggesting art attempting to be above the flesh when actually it's the thinking mans porn. but this sort of non-explotative erotica i have no problem with.

it's the hard-core stuff i dont like, and the culture around it . the peroxide blonde hair, the shaved genitals, the silicone breasts.

i also have no isue with BDSM, as long as it's all safe, sane and consentual. but the 'pain' angle seems to have crept into mainstream porn so every porn actress gets treated as though they have a submissive compulsion.

[ShirleyKnot]

I totally agree SGB. I find that stuff equally revolting.

[BasilBabyEater]

Oh god I'm so sorry itsthequietones.

That must have really upset you, to find that your DH thinks that women being sexually tortured is hilarious

[solidgoldbrass]

I do think that the increased cruelty (whether faked or genuine abuse) in porn is a reflection of an increasingly cruel and divisive culture (rather than waa, waa, the porn industry is the root of all evil). This pervasive idea that other people can be demonized, laughed at, relentlessly bullied for being a bit different, or for having done something successful and then not managed to repeat that success, that didn't start in the porn industry.

Oh and if you want to know who's to blame, my money's on Rupert Murdoch, the man who did the most to actively promote a culture that mixes spite and sentimentality and encourages people not to think.

[AnyFucker]

itsthequietones

you think differently about your H now, I expect. Something has shifted, a realisation.

that is what porn does to healthy relationships

that's just one of the reasons why I don't like it, and defend other's rights to not conform to the idea that porn use is normal, and harmless and is not necessarily something that people have to tolerate in their partner if they don't want to

there are lots of other reasons I detest it too, but I would be here all day