A thread started by a man to throw a few things around.

[Sanjeev]

Gents (and anyone else who is interested), here is where we can carry on this the discussion from this thread;

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1465960-AIBU-to-treat-male-and-female-posters-differently-on-feminism-threads?msgid=31694784#31694784

So, who wants to go first?

[Sanjeev]

Firstly gents, there will be a lot of accusations on this board that we, as men, are prepared to wade in to a discussion and take over, so I think if we keep some stuff in here, that is one less accusation we will have to deal with.

[MrMagnolia]

Well Sanjeev, maybe you could answer the points I made on the other thread to kick off this one.

[Sanjeev]

Here we go then - reposting;

'If people talk about privilege in this thread, it doesn't mean that our life -yours or mine - has been a bed of roses. Far from it in many cases.'

So, even if your life is completely crap, you're homeless etc..as long as you're male, you're still privileged because some men in senior positions are?

'It's more a general point that all other things being equal, us blokes have a lot of stuff loaded in our favour.'

Such as? Girls are outperforming boys in schools and universities, more women than men go to university. What do blokes have loaded in their favour?

'Things like being likely to be paid more for the same job, which every survey will tell you.'

Not true.

'Most of the people in power are men - the government, the banks, the CEO's of major companies, so it must be easier for men to get to the top.'

Or, maybe more men choose to work in these industries, and are less likely to prioritise family over work.

If you're such a campaigner for equality Sanjeev, perhaps you'd like question this article...

www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/12132990

More men than women contract this cancer, and yet free vaccinations are offered to girls only. Men have to pay for it. Would you class that as equality?

[AsdaFudgeyCal]

What is the point of this? Are you trying to suggest that women are A-OK and feminism is a crock-o-shite?

Ask for a MRA section.

[MrMagnolia]

If a man talks about mens rights, why is he always classed as an activist? If a woman talks about womens rights she is never classed as an activist. Why is that? Shouldn't men have rights? Aren't they allowed to discuss mens issues?

[MrMagnolia]

This should be in Dadsnet Sanjeev. You should ask for it to be moved.

[Sanjeev]

The privilege thing sounds stupid when we are talking about the homeless, or being on the dole, or working for minimum wage, or stuck in some dead-end crappy lifestyle. In feminist terms, though, everything comes back to comparing yourself to a woman in exactly the same position. At this end of the social scale though, measurement of who's life is slightly less crap can seem a bit meaningless.

Next part coming up.

[Sanjeev]

Asda, this came about from another thread which brought up a lot of questions not to do with the OP. The link is above. Please read that.

[Sanjeev]

What is dadsnet? Where is it? Or did I miss the joke?

[MrMagnolia]

Dadsnet is a section of Mumsnet. In the 'In the club' section.

[MrMagnolia]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/dadsnet/1467094-Changing-role-of-Fathers

Click on this, it'll take you to dadsnet

[Sanjeev]

Right. I am off to watch 'Homeland'. Post away if you like and we can address this stuff later. I'll just say this. Feminism is really not just 'equality please'. It is a political movement, with theories, philosophies, protagonists and factions - like socialism or conservatism. If you as a man wade in on this board with half-baked ideas and opinions that most of the posters have heard a thousand times already, you will get your arse kicked and gain nothing.

If you come here to learn a bit, argue/propose coherent points and listen to others, it can be stimulating and enlightening. There will be plenty you don't agree with, and some people wont want to give you the time of day, but whatever you do, don't take comments personally. It's the internet. Nobody knows you.

[MrMagnolia]

I'll await your response to my points Sanjeev.

[Sanjeev]

Right. Firstly, Homeland is/was brilliant!

So, equality. Men and women should be paid the same wage for the same work, agreed? According to this EU website, they aren't;

www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2002/01/study/tn0201101s.htm

According to this, in the UK, between 1990 and 2000, women went from being paid 76 per cent of what men got to 80 per cent. So they get paid, on average, 20 per cent less for doing the same stuff. Why should they get less for the same work?

Most of the people in power are men. The current cabinet;

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8675705.stm

24 ministers, 5 women.

The head of Barclays Bank - Bob Diamond. The head of RBS - Stephen Hester. The head of LLoyds - Antonio Horta-Osorio. BP chairman - Carl Henri Svanberg (14 other board execs, 2 women). The point about men choosing careers in these companies, and putting that ahead of family? For me that is the main reason, but it's a crappy one. I have two kids. Why shouldn't I see them grow up? My wife and I wanted them, but I was always earning more, so she stayed at home when they were small. Why should she stay working for 20 - 25 per cent less money than I could make? That isn't fair on me either.

Education? Girls are significantly outperforming boys, at school and university. I think this will go a long way to addressing the previous point about all those higher paid men. It has to, otherwise companies and businesses will under-perform.

The BBC article? Agreed, there is massive focus on women's health issues, e.g. breast cancer, cervical cancer. I don't see massive inequalities within the health service myself, but then I don't really use it. I have been very lucky with my health.

So, back to you MrMagnolia. I want to keep this here because this isn't a board for feminists. It's a place for people to discuss feminism. It interests me.

[Xenia]

I have no problems engaging with men. I support lots of fathers' rights issues. I paid out a huge sum to a man on divorce. I have always taken my gender equality on a non sexist basis as it were and took 2 weeks annual holiday to have babies in so things are "fair" with men.

However men own 90% of the world's assets/wealth and earn two thirds of income earned on the planet so it is quite hard to say men have it tougher than women. i do think more men before they agree to marry should say to their wives - look I may want to take 5 years off when children come and not work and you work full time, what do you think about that and that would help gender equality, help those men who want more time with chiildren and to change gender stereotypes.

Women earn more than man up to age 26 in the UK and do better in just about all exams but it halts then and that is because most women still marry a man who is a higher status, class or income level and who is older so when it comes to whose career comes second because of the choice of men m ost women make women's careers are lesser. If you reverse tha t- I earned 10x my children's father - then of course women carry on working and succeeding and plenty of couples both earn about the same and both work full time.

[Sanjeev]

That's the nub, Xenia. In the majority of cases, it does not make economic sense for the man to give up work rather than the woman. The problem is that with current economic thinking, this government is more likely to try to drop men's wages to bring them in line with women's than vice versa. I would have happily taken time out if my wife had earned more than me.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Sanjeev - Hope you don't mind me posting on your thread.

In terms of HPV, feminists I have spoken to about HPV think boys should get the vaccination too and there does seem to be a move that way. I am sure it will happen soon.

In terms of privilege - all boys and men experience freedom from the everyday sexism that girls and women experience. I have been reading online about FtoM who transition and regret it and in some cases transition back to female. One talked about how angry she felt going from male back to female and suddenly having to deal with everyday sexism that she had been free of when passing as a man

[Sanjeev]

Eats, you are welcome here.

There is a thread on here currently about transsexual people where there appears to be a good deal of prejudice emanating from a certain faction of feminism, so it isn't only men who are capable of mistreating such a minority. However, I take your point generally. Why should my wife or daughter have to deal with caveman attitudes/ shouting/ idiocy from men in white vans or on building sites? My friend's wife has big boobs. She wont go out jogging round the streets any more because of the shouts from cars and vans. What they see as harmless fun, isn't.

[MrMagnolia]

Sanjeev, I'm not going to get into the glass ceiling myth with you. I personally know someone who has extensive knowledge on this subject, having been in these industries for many years, and writes on the subject.

Google glass ceiling myth and you will come across plenty of information on the subject, then you can decide for yourself.

Essentially, if a man and a woman start at the same time, doing the same job, working the same hours, taking the same amount of time off, they get paid the same.

You touched upon girls outperforming boys, but didn't mention why you think this is, or what could be done about it.

The BBC article, and the fact that women have more money poured into their healthcare, you've pretty much dismissed. Do you agree there is an inequality there?

[Mmmango]

You're a man and you started a thread in fwr to throw a few things around?

A bit unfortunate, as thread titles go.

As you were.

[Sanjeev]

MrMag, firstly I am not some kind of apologist or male missionary for the feminist cause, so let's not get into me having to defend every point made on this board. There is plenty of stuff in and around feminism that I agree with, and just as much that I don't think stands up to scrutiny. Everything has to be on a case-by-case basis. Those who know their point of view before understand the issue are idiots (Chris Rock, circa 2007).

Did you check the link that I posted re wage differentials? What did you think? Any of this type of research can be written with a prior agenda, but it was referencing pay rates per hour across different EU countries, and there was a clear trend. I'd honestly like to know what you think, I am not dismissing you. What is does show is the pay gap closing. Pay equality is coming. Feminists get angry that it isn't here NOW, but there are hundreds of years of inequality to overthrow, and attitudes take time to change. Also, the glass ceiling - I have never been anywhere near director level, so I can't comment personally. I did here a group of female UK directors on the radio a few weeks ago, discussing positive discrimination and quotas to get more women on boards as directors. They were all against it, and believed women can get to the top without positive bias.

The school thing. It is real, girls outperform boys. I have a 12 year old son and a 15 yo daughter. Both go to single sex schools, at our choosing. If there is a bias within the education system, then it is wrong. However, in my huge experience of two kids, the curriculum is the same and the opportunities are the same. We would have to ask an education expert as to why girls do better. Could it be the rate at which they mature, or their attitude to academic study, or the fabled 'multitasking' capabilities of the female brain? If the latter were true, they would be better suited to studying multiple subjects to a certain depth. Perhaps the male brain then comes into it's own in later academic life, i.e. single subject to much greater depth. As you can tell, I am throwing stuff around here. We need an expert to answer.

The healthcare thing - I didn't dismiss it. I have no idea about healthcare budgets and how they are allocated. If you can show me that overall women's treatments are favoured over men's purely on the basis of their sex, then I would say that it is wrong.

[Sanjeev]

Mmango, Fatima Whitbread and Tessa Sanderson threw things for a living. Don't go looking for issues that are not there to begin with. I am sure there is far better material in here for you to get your teeth into (women have teeth, right?).

[Sanjeev]

One more thing I forgot on the glass ceiling and pay equality. I would for a huge IT company, which is a relatively young industry with therefore a less ingrained culture. The worldwide CEO is a woman. I have had countless female colleagues paid the same as me, or more. I have had just as many female managers as male. I have seen men and women promoted beyond me, because they were good enough. I have never heard one female colleague complain that she was passed over on the basis of her sex. It doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, but it does mean that it is not everywhere. Attitudes in the workplace can and do change. One reason for this is that companies/corporations as greedy, and anyone who can make more money for said company will get on faster to feed that greed. This greed overrides any lesser form of prejudice. Capitalism doesn't see genitals, it sees dollars. I have mentioned this in other discussions and got roundly blasted, but that is my personal experience.

[Xenia]

That's the nub, Xenia. In the majority of cases, it does not make economic sense for the man to give up work rather than the woman. "

That is only because women marry "up". If you earn 10x your husband as some women do ( I did) then the issues are different.

As long as women marry older men who earn more and are better educated (and most women seek that or end up with it) then these issues continue. When more mumsnetters than not marry "down" the issue goes away. it iso going away a bit because girls now do better than boys at school and then at university and are more likely to go so more women are marrying someone who has no chance of earning what they the woman will.

[thechairmanmeow]

i'm glad you started this thread sanjeev
i consider myself a feminist but the radfems would say feminism isnt a collection of ideas that anyone can have , you actually need to have experience of being a woman in society to call yourself a feminist.


what really pisses me off is if i said i was a woman my posts would be taken differently, seems if you have a penis you cannot discuss feminism without a load of people ganging up on you and twisting your words.

men are treated differently here , and we get told because we're men that we're posting feeling that our male based priviledge means that women must gratify us by answering....well, eerm just being treated with the same resect as the female posters would be nice.