Explaining IWD/feminism to men...

[cuzisayso]

How can I explain my interest in Feminism and International Women's Day to my partner without him feeling defensive about it? I am not very good at articulating why I think it is important...

I am no 'activist' - I just don't have a good enough grasp on the issues - but I like helping to raise awareness and reading about it.

[TunipTheVegemal]

The beginning of The Equality Illusion (here, you can read the beginning via Amazon) has some helpful stats. The worldwide ones especially are really shocking.

[MrsClown]

I admit, it is really difficult because they do tend to get defensive at first. My husband didnt have much of an idea about feminism until I gave him a few facts - gender pay gap, objectification etc. He now considers himself as a feminist (We go by the Marilyn French definition - Feminism isnt about what kind of genitals you possess, its a kind of moral view. Its what you think with your head and you feel with your heart. Its the belief that women matter as much as men do). I tried to explain to him that I feel I should have the same human rights as he does. I put it as simply as possible. The objectification is right in his face (and mine) so he had no problem with that. to help him along I got him to read Stripped by Jennifer H Danns, it is brilliant though a bit tough to read, but well worth the stomach churning. He also adores Annie Lennox so was half way there. I know some feminists dont believe that men can be but we do. He cant feel oppressed in the same way as I do but he can empathise.

Good luck, sorry to go on a bit.

[BasilRathbone]

Ask him why he feels defensive. That in itself is an interesting starting point.

[VictorGollancz]

I only explain when actively asked. The rest of the time it's probably best described by saying that I drip-feed. It's not intentional, but anyone who spends any amount of time near me is going to hear me articulate instances of sexism and inequality, because they are everywhere.

I guess what I'm saying is - don't worry about explaining, just do your thing! It's more important to live a feminist life (in the best way for you - there's no one 'feminist' life) and have your DP understand from that. My partner was always pro-woman: after three years, we've just started having discussions about specific aspects of feminism (initiated by him) and he emailed me an interesting feminist link just yesterday.

I'll be celebrating IWD (sort-of: I'll be at work but I'll be texting and changing my FB status). I'm sure some people will ask me why that is

[Sanjeev]

I am a bloke, and have been lurking round here for a couple of weeks. Perhaps I could give a couple of thoughts on the 'why do men get defensive' bit. Firstly, feminism can seem to have a bit of a scattergun approach sometimes. Some very serious issues get raised on here - sexual assault, pay differences, literature, parenting etc etc.

But they also get roped in with what can seem (to men) to be incredibly trivial stuff;
[http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1421634-This-website-has-made-me-feel-a-little-bit-nauseous]
[http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1421463-Sexist-clothes-label]
[http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1413697-Movie-and-music-magazines-always-in-mens-lifestyle-section]

Of those three examples, the first seems lost on everybody, the second is an ancient internet meme/joke, and the third seems to completely ignore magazine target audience demographics and to be a rant for ranting's sake. The second one also adds to the myth that feminism is completely devoid of humour, and is populated by sour-faced individuals.

Lastly, feminism seems to take great delight in pointing the finger at men, but giving women a free pass when it comes to their own behaviour. Take the likes of Jordan before. Piles of cash generated from a set of pneumatic tits, who having made her money, chooses to continue to encourage girls to follow her career path in her latest tv series, rather than encourage them into business and entrepreneurship (something she has also done very successfully). Feminists will argue till they are blue in the face that it isn't her fault, she is 'forced' to take this path by the amounts of cash she can make, and that this is all the fault of men and where they spend their money.

There you go. Just some of the stuff he might think of when the subject is raised. I have put this up here to help the OP, not to cause any arguments. These views are not necessarily those of the author.

[spaghettina]

Good question OP - was wondering the same myself after this morning DP got huffy about it (couldn't see why DD's nursery are having them make a gift for IWD this week - here in Italy it's a big deal, and there are bunches of mimosa everywhere, special events etc) and came out with "When's my day then?"

I said "Every day is men's day!" and reminded him of some statistics that we saw on TV last night, about domestic violence victims, the pay gap, etc etc. but was inwardly quite shocked at his defensive if not downright hostile reaction to IWD.

[BigTeuchLittleTeuch]

That's funny spaghettina, I said exactly the same response! Funnily enough though, International Men's Day is 19th November, adopted by many countries and focuses on men's health and well-being. DH just said, oh that's fine then.

Thanks for the responses.

I have decided to take the tact of making him realise think he IS a feminist too . "Do you believe women should be paid less than men for the same job? No, then you a feminist! Do you think men should be prosecuted for kicking the shit out of their wives? Yes? Great...you a feminist!"

I'm going for the easy wins as you can tell...

[spaghettina]

I might take the same stance - I have to do something as this morning he said he didn't want DD to grow up as an "obtuse feminist" like me and my mother ...when I asked what he meant, he said "a feminist with 70s ideology who thinks they're being oppressed by having to mop the floor".

He then proceeded to "perform" the washing up and hoovering in front of DD to show what a new man he is (and implicitly, I presume, how women have nothing to complain about any more).

I will now tell him when International Men's Day is so he can feel less threatened by the whole thing.

anyway, happy IWD to you all!

[BertieBotts]

I think it's quite hard. From the examples that Sanjeev gave, well, they might seem trivial but isn't that the point? That it's not only big issues like the prevalence of domestic violence or horrendous things occurring in other countries or pay gaps etc but it's the everyday stuff, the drip-drip effect, if you like, which is just so constant and depressing.

Take the trousers, for example. Would it be funny if the original meme said "Give it to your Chinese mate. That's what they're there for!" Of course it wouldn't and no company would dare print that on their trousers. But women are fair game.

I think that with DP he doesn't think that sexism is a problem because it's not immediately obvious, and it doesn't impact on him. He once described me as a "massive feminist" which I really am not I think of myself more as a teeny tiny babysteps feminist. He will describe some horrible sexist thing one of his work mates has said and then say "But he's an alright bloke apart from that." I disagree! How can someone be "an alright bloke" if they are sexist? A character trait like that impinges on everything that someone does or thinks.

The thing I try to remember when I am talking to him is what I was like a few years ago when I didn't know anything about feminism. I would have probably poo-poohed various things as nonsense or overreacting too, it's only with the benefit of having read and absorbed lots and really listened and thought and digested stuff that I have understood why certain things are problematic. You can't make that kind of deep understanding happen in a single conversation, you can only plant seeds for further research/reading/exploration. Ultimately it's up to them whether they believe it's a valid cause or not.

I have found that when talking to my mum it's a lot easier, she doesn't identify as a feminist and seems to think that some of the things I say are extreme but with certain things, like for example if you are having a conversation (as a woman) and you get slightly annoyed or passionate about something, it can quite often be taken a totally different way to a man talking in the same tone about something. She gets that, because she's experienced it, whereas DP hasn't because he is male. Similarly, talking about porn and why it's threatening and aggressive, she just gets it, whereas DP doesn't. It's because it's really hard to step into another person's shoes and imagine a situation from their point of view. Especially when that point of view is almost never present in the media, etc. Probably the reason women supposedly find it easier to empathise is that we are always being shown the male point of view, the male opinion, it's easy to empathise when everything you interact with, media, pop culture, professionally etc comes from the male point of view.

Did you know for example that they only ever show men on TV having heart attacks? (Mainly because you need to use a defibrillator topless.) And that the symptoms for women are in fact different (more likely to have pain in the jaw and/or back rather than the chest and/or left arm) - but very few people know this, because it's always men, on TV, having heart attacks. Again, it's a trivial example, but quite shocking, if you think about the potential consequences. And probably one you've never even thought about.

[BertieBotts]

Wow, that was a disjointed and rather random attempt at an insult

[LovedayPan]

mummy - yes, I agree, you probably are the only one who thinks the OP is stupid.
hth you.

[Giyadas]

Ignore and report Bertie. I have, as he's just desperate for attention.

[Giyadas]

Sorry, that sounded bossy. It's just the 3rd thread in short succession.

[LovedayPan]

yes,report is prob. best.

[LovedayPan]

just have done so.

[Honeydragon]

Me to although on another a thread, same theme

[BertieBotts]

I imagined so. Good to know my instincts were right :)

Night all.

[LovedayPan]

The OP hasn't been back at all. OP, where are you?

And you haven't said why he may be resistant.

And sending him links to stuff he may well be meh about is no effective measure compared to you describing and analysing what IWD means to you, to him.

[BigTeuchLittleTeuch]

Hello, sorry I was back - I completely forgot about my nc

I did ask why he was defensive about it, and explained that he. personally, didn't ahve to feel defensive about it. In the end, he googled it himself and found some youtube videos which he could easily digest.

I did kind of explain to him why it's important to me, and why it is important globally (even if he can't accept ongoing inequality in this country...)

[mumwithdice]

Dripfeeding works. Whenever DH would say something feminist that he thought was just sensible (which is what feminism is in many ways), I would say "You know, most feminists think that" and finally, the other day, DH looked at me in surprise and said "You know, I am a feminist."