is there a special place in hell for women who dont help other women

[bejeezus]

(I am new here)

I read this quote the other day by Madeleine Albright, and I like it

I really feel the sisterly thing. Have done for most of my adult life. Ive never really examined why before. But a quick naval gaze gives me; shared life experiences and biology which gives experiences unique to women

I had thought that 'sisterhood' would be a pretty universal feminist 'belief'. I have been suprised that some posters in this section, clearly poo-poo the idea.

Help me understand- how can you not feel an affinity with other women and be a feminist?

[OnlyANinja]

Should I help other women more than I generally help other people?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Some people, including some women, are appalling examples of humanity. Am I supposed to leap to their defence simply because we share a gender? My feminism means making life better for women in general. It does not mean sacrificing my principles to make excuses for individual women.

BTW If you're going to naval gaze... submarines are interesting.

[bejeezus]

at submarines

but I mean as a general rule? I know there are hideous women as equally as there are hideous men. But assuming the best of people...?

no?

[Bramshott]

I'm not so sure about the sisterhood thing - I seem to remember Harriet Harman invoking it on a webchat on here to imply that we should give her any easier ride just because she is a woman, and I'm not sure I buy into that.

[bejeezus]

and I dont mean I like women more (I dont think!)

[bejeezus]

but bram just because some people misuse it/ take advantage of it, doesnt make it an invalid point?

doesnt it help women resist 'divide and conquer' to any extent do you think?

[bejeezus]

posted too soon - yes of course we are all different, but we have so much more in common? and women need to stand together to defend womens rights, regardless of the angle you might be coming from?

[OnlyANinja]

I think we should be supportive and kind to everyone. Whether they are a woman or a man or a child or an alien with green skin. Perhaps it is easier to empathise with someone who has experienced the world in the same way you have, but that doesn't mean that that person is more worthy of your consideration.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Just because I have a feminist outlook and want to support other women doesn't mean I have to switch off my critical faculties. That's just sexual parochialism. If I think that a female friend getting falling-down drunk is making herself look ridiculous I'll tell her... not think 'there there dear, you get drunk all you like because of the nasty old patriarchy'. I may give other women the benefit of the doubt more than I'd give a man but, if their behaviour crosses a line, I'm not going to let it go.

I have serious problems with the Karen Matthews' of this world, for example. In fact, I probably feel more angry towards her precisely because she suckered me in feeling sorry for her frightened mother act before the truth came out.

[bejeezus]

that is helping a drunk friend though cogito surely? telling her shes making a fool of herself, I mean- Thats having her back. It would be neglectful to let her get on with it

[bejeezus]

will look at Karen Matthews...dont know who she is

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

If you broaden the definition of 'help' to everything from hand-holding to telling a mate that she's an embarrassing drunk to sending a woman to prison for having her own child kidnapped.... then it doesn't leave a lot out. 'Help' in the way Albright is suggesting, seems to be claiming something rather more partisan and unconditional

[bejeezus]

need to think about this a lot more

but to me it feels like, to say you dont feel a 'special' affinity with women is somehow saying that you dont allow your core values/ethics/moral/beliefs/whatever spill over into your every-day-to-day life.

Which then just makes a theory/ a bit academic? Not something you are actually going to live your life by?

Cogito i suppose thats the crux of it though maybe - what does 'help' mean- i wish I hadnt included that quote now- and just asked if you all feel the sisterhood thing.....

[BlingLoving]

I think there's two sides to this. I agree that just because I'm a feminist doesn't mean I should immediately lose all sense of critical thinking about other women. But I do think that women can be particularly nasty to each other in a way you don't see with men. For example IME, a man will do something simple like introduce his friend to a colleague with the potential to lead to work etc. That same man, will not normally take responsibility for what happens next. However, a woman will not do that as the woman feels directly responsible for the relationship from there on in and in case it goes sour, she'd rather not do it.

Because of where I work, I regularly get requests from people I know within the organisation to look at the CV/ offer an internship / have coffee with their son/daughter/neighbour's child etc. Those requests are always from men.

[arghmyear]

I've been on the receiving end of some appalling behaviour from women. I am thinking of 2 in particular. There is no such thing as sisterhood and I will not help someone just because they are female.

If there was a sisterhood, no one would ever (knowingly) shag a married man.

If we always offered help to "sisters", there are plenty among us who would take advantage and ask for help when it wasn't necessary.

You just need to glance at active conversations to illustrate these points. Women can be extraordinarily nasty to each other and sisterhood is a romantic day dream.

[bejeezus]

but - arent those nasty ones the ones who have the special place in hell?!

the reason the quote resonates with me at the moment I think is because of a women that I work with. She seems to not like other women; she is very unsympathetic of another female colleague who has to take time off sometimes for very painful menstraution. She also seems to wait until women are in a vulnerable place in their lives and then turn on them- she has done this to me (at present whilst I am going through a divorce) -trying to ostracise me..... (and with her sister-actual sister!)

anyway...Im trying to give some context. so, by 'help' I mean whether she likes me or not, I would expect her not to be making my life MORE difficult on purpose. And I would expect this from her MORE because we are women working in a very male dominated industry/office. If the tables were turned that is how I would feel about her and her situation; I would offer her support/help because she is a human being but probably more so because she is a women

[bejeezus]

so I suppose I am looking it from the opposite side from a lot of posts above- there are some un-sisterly women. But I dont think that is a reason for the rest of us to not be sisterly?

(and friendship still extended to the meanies, if they want to be nice!)

[OnlyANinja]

If you are nasty to women, why do you get a specialer place in hell than if you are nasty to men?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

@blingloving. Interesting you only get requests from men. I run a cub pack and the pushy ones trying to get their children bumped up the waiting list or being promoted to sixer are always the mums :)

@bejeezus... 'Special affinity' to women is not necessarily the same as your core values. Values don't spill over into life, values are how you live your life. I can by sympathetic or even empathise with a woman but, if defending that woman meant compromising my values, I'd be very uncomfortable. In fact, I've been in situations where that has happened..... someone has asked for my help and I've given it, only to find out later that I wasn't given the full story and am now defending the indefensible. So experience tells me not to charge in like the cavalry but to hold back a little until I've got more information.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

And by giving us the story about the bullying woman in your workplace, you are not being sisterly towards her.... Are you trying to help her in any way? Empathise with her point of view? Giving her any support?

[bejeezus]

yes I have tried Cogito

[sunshineandbooks]

I think this depends on how you interpret 'sisterhood'.

I don't take it to mean 'siding with women over men even if you believe they are wrong'. I think it's more important to honour our own consciences, beliefs and values first.

However, I will stick up for women I disagree with or dislike if I feel that they are getting a hard time because of their gender or that there gender is being used to make life more difficult in a way that would never apply to a man.

For example, ridiculing a female politician because of her looks isn't on. Even though I might vote the other way and secretly be pleased that her treatment is making her political position weaker, it's not fair and therefore I would no part in it and will stick up for her. If her policies are crap or she is a nasty person, she should be taken to task for those things, not her appearance or her family set-up.

[bejeezus]

Yes, I wouldn't side with a women who I thought she was morally wrong