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Feminism: chat

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Feminism: chat

Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Last night's Doctor Who

48 replies

MsWeatherwax · 18/09/2011 14:50

Anyone else resent the "Amy Williams" bit? There seemed a lot of underlying sexism about it. I know there was a thread on here somewhere about Doctor Who but I've lost where :(

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belgo · 18/09/2011 14:51

She mostly gets called Amy Pond, and the Doctor has even called her and Rory 'the Ponds'. I haven't seen last night's episode yet so can't really comment.

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EdithWeston · 18/09/2011 14:54

I's a deliberate choice, and the use reflects the severing of the relationship with the Doctor and is clearly connected to the wider loss of faith. It's difficult to predict where this leads, as the plot is so convoluted - we gave seen what is likely to be her future and she's a Pond again there (as is her daughter).

Given the complexity of the plot, I'd be very wary of any theorising ahead of denouement. There are plenty of deliberate red herrings.

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EdithWeston · 18/09/2011 14:57

Here's the main thread about part 2 of the current series.

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LRDTheFeministDragon · 18/09/2011 15:07

Yes, that pissed me off no end. He gave her a speech about how she needed to 'see him as he really is' and stop being an adoring child - and used her taking her husband's name as a symbol of her being adult. Utterly crap.

I really didn't like it and it did not fit with the way they've presented the character in the past - she already objected to Melody being 'Williams' and made it clear she did not want to use Rory's name (and Rory seems perfectly happy with that). I really disliked the idea that the Doctor seems to see her growing up and away from him as dependent on or symbolized by her relationship with Rory.

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MsWeatherwax · 18/09/2011 15:17

Oooh, thanks for the link. This time I will remember to "watch" it.

I felt like it was some sort of handing her over from being one man's responsibility to another. The 'time to grow up' bit did really piss me off.

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wem · 18/09/2011 15:18

It really jarred with me too.

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AlmaMartyr · 18/09/2011 15:24

I was a bit taken aback by that as well. I was unhappy with the light jokey references to DV as well - when Rory talks about her taking her shoes off to hit her and when he's lying on the floor asking if it was Amy that knocked him over.

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EdithWeston · 18/09/2011 15:33

Excellent: more Doctor Who fans!

The writing on the series of Doctor Who, especially in the overarching bits, is usually very tight. So to be sure this was just a careless slur, then the context of this part is relevant - what exactly was going on? Why is the Doctor leaving both Amy and Rory at this point? What is necessary to be said to them (jointly or separately) in terms of what the Doctor has to do next (assuming it was the "real" Doctor).

Also: what on earth is going on with the really strange reference in this section to finding the daughter? It seemed very disjointed: but is there an answer to this which also answers the above.

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LRDTheFeministDragon · 18/09/2011 15:36

alma - good point.

edith - I think the writing is usually very tight in terms of plot, but not always very tight in terms of character. I agree the context is relevant: but that's why it came across as so poor, IMO. It didn't fit the context or the backstory at all.

I would like to know about the daughter thing - did you see cornsilk's theory (or at least, she siad it on a thread, may not be hers originally) that the other Amy is off being frantic about her daughter and that's why ours is so calm about it? It's very clever if true.

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LRDTheFeministDragon · 18/09/2011 15:37

(Btw, what's the 'answer' you have? If it's a theory can you share, if it's a spoiler you know from insider info I'd rather not know! )

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EdithWeston · 18/09/2011 15:53

I don't really have an answer! Have you seen the posts about red/blue bow tie? I'm not sure where it all leads, but suspect (given gangers and TGWW) that both doubles and differently progressing timelines will have something to do with it. Partly also, because River arrived with her "death"and her birth was this series. But the adult River (and the Mel version) appeared after the backwards lifespan, which also makes me think we're in a loop.

The episode title TGWW was far more annoying to me than the lines in this episode (for the latter might be genuinely plot driven), but typing this up and putting them together is making me wonder again. I'll post again if that leads to any coherent theories!

Finally, I'd like to say that I have liked both River and Amy being characters who have far more independent roles, who exercise choices, and who drive events is a welcome advance on the supporting role type of assistant.

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LRDTheFeministDragon · 18/09/2011 16:08

Darn, I was hoping you did! I love trying to work out what's going on. I have seen the red/blue stuff.

I agree the title was a bit annoying/odd too - felt like the title to a different episode IMO.

I really like having Amy and Rory as assistants, and them being married so different from the usual dynamic. This episode felt as if we were back in the first few episodes of the first Matt Smith season, with Amy and the Doctor together and Amy not at all sure about Rory.

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garlicnutty · 18/09/2011 17:28

I thought this week's episode was about the dangers of unreasoning faith? Amy was vulnerable to the Minotaur because of her faith that the Doctor always makes things okay; only Rory was immune. Amy struck me as a bit of a nit in the episode - that Muslim girl took the strong-charactered woman slot. But I guess nobody should be portrayed as unremittingly strong (even the Doctor has weaknesses in this series) and there always is a strong woman, if not several :)

My take on the new-house-new-car-new-name thing was to be symbolic of their "real" life, which is what Amy actually called it. Presumably we're going to have a few episodes with guest assistants - I always enjoy those - before the River-related time loop joins up again.

River's already told Rory that she's living 'backwards' through time - that is, she's born in the future - so, at this particular juncture, Amy's in 2011 and River hasn't been born. Amy's already seen her past and her future; knows River's going to be okay despite all the adventure.

... Time travel, dontcha love it?!

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MigratingCoconuts · 18/09/2011 17:38

I really liked the fact that Rory was immune because in the previous series he was portrayed asbeing a bit of a dill who Amy let hang around. Here, his real strengths are coming out.

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rosy71 · 18/09/2011 17:39

I didn't like the Amy Williams thing either. I've always thought how good it was that she'd continued to be called Pond despite being married so was really taken aback by that and the implications behind it.

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EdithWeston · 18/09/2011 17:44

rosy71: does that mean that they were definitely dropped off at that house after June 11?

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rosy71 · 18/09/2011 17:55

I don't know. I'm becoming confused with all the talk of loops, gangers etc! I had naively assumed time was moving forwards. Have been trying to figure it out!

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bucaneve · 18/09/2011 18:02

Ooh! ooh! Dr.Who and Feminism in the same thread - 2 of my fave things

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SardineQueen · 18/09/2011 18:11

Going to watch it later. Bookmarking this thread. Haven't read it as don't want spoilers!!!

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EdithWeston · 18/09/2011 18:17

Makes a difference - well, to me at least, because if they have been dropped off after the death of the Doctor it makes no sense to me (or should that be "less sense"?) as I had though the new house was the place at which the letter arrived which started The Impossible Astronaut.

If before June, then we know that she does not become Williams in any durable way, as she was Pond in TIA and events which flowed on that time line, so the Doctor must have been speaking for a different effect.

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garlicnutty · 18/09/2011 18:30

Oh, good point, Edith, about the invitation arriving at their house!

The walls of the writers' office must be covered in spaghetti charts

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EdithWeston · 18/09/2011 19:06

We're now watching the BBC3 repeat (started Sun 7pm).

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rosy71 · 18/09/2011 19:28

I thought it was the same house where they were living at the start of the series but couldn't they have just already been living there iyswim? I'll have to watch again and see what he says when he drops them there.

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EdithWeston · 18/09/2011 19:31

I thought the house must be new as the Doctor gave them the keys. But how would the Doctor have acquired a house for them. Oh dear - I'm tying myself up in knots - so perhaps we don't know either way if they have been dropped off before or after TIA.

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EdithWeston · 18/09/2011 19:55

Right - I've just watched it again: car is new and theirs (how did the Doctor arrange that?): status of house unclear.

He calls her "Williams" only when he is deliberately making her angry with him in order to save her life, by making the breaking of her faith strong enough to defeat a monster. It is the culmination of a series of harsher and harsher statements, and now seems to me to fit really well in such a plot-necessary escalation - changing her name is actually and deliberately the ultimate infuriation, strong enough to slay a god.