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Hermione Granger and the Deathly Hallows. No?

(56 Posts)
Cleverything Thu 28-Jul-11 21:11:41

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AwesomePan Thu 28-Jul-11 21:30:44

erm.. not really. If one wishes to fantasies about a particular aspect of a magical fantasy then yes. But no real evidence of it whatsoever.
Sorry. No strong argument there.

Hulababy Thu 28-Jul-11 21:36:56

But she does get credit for the stuff she does, at least as much credit as Ron gets for when he does stuff. As they get older they appreciate how much she does due to be being clever than they are, etc, too.

Also - the end of the article isn't right is it? Hermione DOES marry someone from pre graduation. She is married to Ron in the epilogue.

Cleverything Thu 28-Jul-11 21:40:14

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AwesomePan Thu 28-Jul-11 21:46:38

is it a satire? You mean the article, or the books? I like satire, but I am not seeing it either!

The really best thing that dd sees in the series, in terms of gender politics/personal thing, is that Hermione and Harry are mates who grew up together without a sexual demand. <of course I paraphrase dd's words>

TheCrackFox Thu 28-Jul-11 21:50:57

I was thinking the other day (whilst in the cinema watching Harry Potter) that Harry would have died half way through the first book if it wasn't for Hermione.

SnapesPlaything Thu 28-Jul-11 21:53:49

I think it is meant to be sarcastic Hulababy.

AwesomePan Thu 28-Jul-11 21:55:13

TCF - And he should have!! Please!

I just doubt if there was anythink like a feminist intent from JKR, and weare now scraping a very short barrel to produce any evidence of such.

AwesomePan Thu 28-Jul-11 21:56:16

Sarcastic or satire?? Which?

If either a bit poor.

Hulababy Thu 28-Jul-11 21:57:10

I couldn't work out one way or the other. Parts of the article seem to be agreeing with what happens int he books, and other parts not. Not all of it makes a great deal of sense as the article is so mixed up imo.

I don't think Hermione is treated any differently to Ron in terms of what she does and the level credit she gets for it. Obviously Harry is going to get all the attention he is, after all, whp the books are about!

EdithWeston Thu 28-Jul-11 22:02:14

There's a bit in one of the later books, where Hermione rounds on Ron when she thinks he's slighted her because she's a girl. He responded along the lines of "after knowing you for XX years, how could anyone think girls are rubbish?"

MrsReasonable Thu 28-Jul-11 22:34:39

I think it comes across as fond of the series, whilst pointing out that Hermione doesn't get the respect she deserves. The author wrote a follow-up explanatory post.

AwesomePan Thu 28-Jul-11 22:43:49

ah, so it was a sort of repressed fantasy by the author.

I do take her points, but as a child she hadn't read widely.

I am too surprised her editor asked her to write a follow up. The first was tedious enough!.

solidgoldbrass Fri 29-Jul-11 12:12:04

I think it's a terrific piece and written by someone who obviously enjoyed the books and films. It is interesting to think that in many ways Hermione is the central character of the series, or could be - but that if it had been marketed as the Hermione Granger series it would not have sold, because of the self-reinforcing, self-perpetuating myth (mainly pushed by erm, male figures in the publishing industry) that stuff about women and girls will only be bought by women and girls, and you only get 'universal' appeal if you make it All About The Menz. (They conveniently forget how many male fans Buffy always had).

LRDTheFeministDragon Fri 29-Jul-11 13:22:59

Well, I thought it was funny. I guess if you've not read the books/seen the films it's confusing but otherwise, erm, how on earth did you miss the point?!

I do think the bit about Ron's girlfriend being slated in the books because she wants him to like her, and about girls being 'intuitive' were genuinely annoying and crap.

Firsttimer7259 Fri 29-Jul-11 13:43:06

Ok ho hum...first point.. the Buffy crit doesnt work. Yes Buffy is the chosen one but the whole point is she doesnt want to be. The whole Buffy show is constantly asking: 'what does it mean to be a hero'. The other (hugely feminist) point is that she deals with her power finally by sharing it and by refusing to allow it to isolate her.
Its also about being brave. This is what Harry has too. He is brave, he's a hero, then he has to prove why he is a hero. Much of Harry's journey is again about not wanting to be the one and then stepping up to the plate. Much of the books describe him being scared, being embarrassed about being Harry Potter. Wishing he was 'normal'.
In Buffyverse Hermione is Willow. The clever girl, who also shows guts and character (as well as flaws). A pretty good solid female character actually imo. Actually I think both series show alot of the different ways in which people can contribute, be brave, make a difference. Ron is Xander, Im not so up on Harry Potter anymore but theres a huge amount in Buffy about needing the contribution of the goofball (providing the heart of the team)

Gosh I have warmed to my theme

I think the crit really suffers from 'clever-girl syndrome'. Which is the idea that its being clever that should be rewarded most, that being clever the most work/effort and that being clever of greatest value. When in fact what both Harry and Buffy show is that its what you do with your power that matters (not the power itself) and that being brave, being kind and trying to do what's right is what matters. In fact both Willow and Hermione sometimes get tripped up by their cleverness.

Goodness, insight after insight here today.

stripeywoollenhat Fri 29-Jul-11 13:52:52

i think what you're all ignoring is the fact that, while girls are allowed to be clever and even occasionally brave in the harry potter series, they also have to lay the tables and cook the dinners. and if they are unpleasant, they have 'mannish' hands or otherwise intolerably unfeminine attributes. seriously, harry potter is a perfectly entertaining children's fiction, but progressive it is not.

LRDTheFeministDragon Fri 29-Jul-11 13:57:00

Oh, no firstimer, I hate that argument! Being clever isn't everything, I agree. But you notice how it's only girls who seem to get 'tripped up' by their cleverness! I really hate the way pop culture gives girls such grudging recognition - yes, you can be a heroine but only if you are also blonde and slim and breakable, and if you enjoy sex you will be punished; yes, you can be a clever girl but God forbid you get uppity or you'll be sneered at.

Firsttimer7259 Fri 29-Jul-11 14:02:53

Im not sure. Read the Potter books but some time ago. Would argue for Buffy as feminist and progressive to the end. I thought the elves did the housework in Potter. BTW agreed with the article writer on finding the trivialising of Hermione's elves rights movement uncomfortable and unfunny.
OTOH I seem to remember a rather cool, sort of punkish, witch in the dumbledores defenders or whatever they were called. Plus impressive women about on the games pitch (cant remember name of game). Ginny wasnt characterless, altho why they all have to marry each other is beyond me.

This might be and excuse to revisit Potter or at least watch the final movie wink

Firsttimer7259 Fri 29-Jul-11 14:07:18

Sorry LRD its not just the women who get tripped up. Giles' cleverness trips him up too. Spectacularly at times. See also Wesley a man who is initially just ridiculous because all he does is stick to his texts
On sex: I think the Innocence episode on Buffy is an amazing riposte to the final girl in horror movies. Yes she sleeps with him, and yes he turns into a monster, so far so typical. But by the end of the episode shes given him a spectacular kick in the nuts and her father figure tells her he's not upset with her for having sex. Plus by end of season she runs him through with a sword

stripeywoollenhat Fri 29-Jul-11 14:08:24

absent the slave elf labour, a woman deals with the domestics in nearly every circumstance. it annoyed the shit out of me tbh.

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie Fri 29-Jul-11 14:09:50

I thought the article was silly tbh and that it fell down by trying to be 'too clever' so that it didn't really know what point it was trying to make (if any) by the end.

LRDTheFeministDragon Fri 29-Jul-11 14:14:35

First - I'm not sure where Giles gets tripped up. I don't think he does really. Wesley just comes across as not clever, doesn't he? That's the point - he doesn't really know what he's talking about. The 'sex is bad' message runs right through Buffy - especially in the last couple of seasons which SMG and James Masters both said they weren't very keen about. Don't get me wrong, I like Buffy and think it was amazing and original - but it didn't get everything right 'first time'.

I find it annoying with Hermione that JR has to do the stupid 'why, you're beautiful' bit where she sheds her books and glasses, straightens her hair and turns 'beautiful'. Just a bit crap and cliched.

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie Fri 29-Jul-11 14:17:50

But that's what Hermione chooses for herself, surely? Eg after Draco makes her teeth grow, she alters them slightly when the nurse heals her, iirc - she wants to look good as well as be clever and why the heck not?

LRDTheFeministDragon Fri 29-Jul-11 14:25:01

She's a character in a novel. She doesn't 'choose'. hmm

In RL, sure, it's fine and lovely if people want to be pretty, whatever pretty means to them. In a novel, it comes across as a role model. Hence me being a bit pissed off at it!

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