I have a question about attitudes to lesbianism

[TheRealMBJ]

Prompted by skim reading the very interesting separatist thread, it just occurred to me that lesbianism is still very much demonised in society. The media and individuals who are very supportive of gay-rights seem to sneer at lesbians. I don't quite get it.

Surely if it is accepted that homosexuality is normal it should be the same for men and women?

[TrillianAstra]

I haven't noticed this at all.

[TrillianAstra]

But yes I agree, if you accept that some people are attracted to people of the same sex that should apply equally to men and women.

[TheRealMBJ]

Is it just me who's experienced this? Am I seeing something that isn't there?

[LoveBeingAbleToNamechange]

I'm more aware of lesbians being something that men want to observe for their own benefit in a way that doesn't happen the other way round.

[Butterbur]

It sort of does happen the other way round. "Slash" is a very popular area of fanfiction where male character in books/films etc are portrayed having gay sex. It extends to real life members of boy bands too.

[TheRealMBJ]

Yy, the is the whole 'girl-on-girl' erotic nonsense and this idea that sometimes raises it's ugly head that all a lesbian woman needs is a good fuck but that isn't really what I'm talking about. More a subtle attitude of 'it's just not normal' when it comes to lesbianism which doesn't seem to extend to gayness.

[LRDTheFeministNutcase]

Yes, I have noticed this in some circles.

[fluffles]

not something i've observed to be honest, in fact lesbianism seems to attract far less disgust than male gayness in quite a lot of society.

[Wallissimpson]

I think it's the reverse. I think people are far more accepting of lesbianism than of gay men.

An example, I work in a female dominated premises and one of my colleagues is a lesbian. None of us blink an eye, we hug as we would any other woman etc etc.
I can't see a group of men being so accepting.

[TheRealMBJ]

Perhaps I should try explain it better.

Rather than 'not normal' it is more like people think it isn't real. Like it isn't permanent DYKWIM?

[TheRealMBJ]

Maybe it is just the wierdo backwater I live in then

[fluffles]

i guess that a lot of people may think that a lesbian is 'really' bi-sexual whereas they don't think that of a gay man.

but i know a lot of civil-partnered lesbians.. i'd be interested to know if there are more or fewer cp'd lesbians than men..??

but i wonder if people not being so convinced it's permanent is more because they don't have the disgust of lesbian sex that people have of man/man sex... lots of men wouldn't mind if their partner had previously had female partners but most women are not comfortable with their partner having previously had male partners.

[LRDTheFeministNutcase]

No, I have come across this too MBJ. I knew a truly unpleasant bloke who when our friend told him she was getting married to a woman, burst out laughing. He genuinely thinks lesbianism is 'inherently funny' and has said so many times - the only conclusion I can draw is that he doesn't think it's real/ can't understand how two women could possibly function without a man.

[LoveBeingAbleToNamechange]

That's where I think it does link into what I and another poster said, very much a if she had a real man or just being done for a mans benefit.

Btw I am aware it happens the other way round but on no where near the same level.

[LRDTheFeministNutcase]

Also - I've just remembered a really awful story a friend had. Her doctor couldn't accept she had a sex life and yet had never been vaginally penetrated. He actually hurt her quite a bit because she explained she was sexually active but homosexual, and he did not seem to understand and expressed surprise he was struggling with his speculum. I was furious on her behalf, as you can imagine!

That is obviously serious and unusual, but I think it's not uncommon for people to think lesbians don't have 'real' sex.

[TheRealMBJ]

and from a medical professional. That's shocking tbh.

Yes, I suppose that's what I mean. Almost an attitude of, 'Poor dears, they'll come round eventually'. Obviously I'd be very interested in a lesbian's experience of this and their thoughts on it.

[TheRealMBJ]

Oh, and that type of attitude also goes along with the thought that it isn't a real violation of a woman when an non-consensual but non-penetrators sexual act is performed on her.

[OrangeHat]

I have always found it strange that gay men are so much more "in evidence" than gay women. For eg I have worked with lots of openly gay men, but never an openly gay woman. I can think of loads of gay men on the telly, but only a couple of lesbians.

Either there are a lot more gay men than women out there (unlikely?), or men who are gay are more open about it, or lesbians really like to keep it quiet. If lesbians tend to keep quiet about it while gay men don't.... Why would that be? Is an interesting question which might throw some light on the OPs observation.

[lezzermum]

My DD still lives at home and is in a relationship with a woman and i wonder whether my husband would be so liberal about the whole thing if she was a boy. I think i am also guilty of treating them like best friends. We refer to DD's girlfriend as another daughter and laugh how we have two children.

[colditz]

Women are closer to each other in general. We hug, we kiss, we may hold hands in nightclubs (usually on the way to the bathroom). Unless you see two women snogging each other, you can fairly assume that they are just hetero friends who happen to be hugging, kissing or holding hands. You may be wrong, but it's still a fair assumption given the statistics.

Straight men socialise differently. They don't kiss. Their hugging is punctuated with painful looking back slapping/thumping. They don't hold hands. Only gay men kiss, hug 'nicely' (ie like women do, without additional pain) or hold hands.

So we see them. We can see male gay couples in a way that we don't see female gay couples, they stand out from their straight peers in a way that lesbian couples don't, because straight women often cluster around in pairs, hold hands and cuddle each other. Straight men don't.

[Wallissimpson]

Colditz, absolutely that.

[TheRealMBJ]

Hmm... I suppose it is easier to live life being ignored and dismissed or overlooked than the alternative. Hadn't thought about it that way.

[TheRealMBJ]

THAT'S what I meant, Lenin. In my OP. I know it is the logical conclusion of our sexist society, it just seems so illogical