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A WOMAN juror - BBC R4 News

(38 Posts)
cleverything Wed 15-Jun-11 10:09:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bennifer Wed 15-Jun-11 10:24:54

You might be overthinking this one

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 15-Jun-11 12:09:17

i don't understand - context?

Alibabaandthe80nappies Wed 15-Jun-11 12:10:21

They would have said 'male juror' if it had been a man. You are definitely overthinking.

cleverything Wed 15-Jun-11 13:21:18

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cleverything Wed 15-Jun-11 13:22:34

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 15-Jun-11 13:42:15

No, they wouldn't have sad "man juror" if it was a man, or male juror for that matter.

I still hear these things a lot, where the default is assumed to be male. It's pretty subtle but it plays into how we all see the world. Pisses me off.

SybilBeddows Wed 15-Jun-11 13:44:17

I don't believe for a moment they would have said 'male juror' or 'man juror'.

It is subtle but bloody annoying.

upahill Wed 15-Jun-11 14:08:50

As I undeerstand it they said ' femail juror...............' to set the scene of the report and then went into more detail.
I have heard similar re men but can't think of the example that is at the back of my mind.

It's not made me cross or anything I have to say and I do think OP that you may be over reacting.

cleverything Wed 15-Jun-11 14:12:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 15-Jun-11 14:20:37

They usually only say "male" if it's in a job role that's been historically mainly carried out by women, e.g. "male midwife".

They should stop that too.


ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 15-Jun-11 14:22:01

I don't think you're overreacting at all. Women have been on juries for what - 80 years? It's not like it's news, and you would expect that around half of the jurors today are men and half are women. So why are the men "jurors" and the women "female jurors"? Because men are "people" and women are just "women".

cleverything Wed 15-Jun-11 14:23:57

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GrimmaTheNome Wed 15-Jun-11 14:30:44

I agree - in this context they shouldn't have felt the need for the qualifier 'woman'. They wouldn't have said 'man juror'.

I can see some point in 'male midwife' because 'midwife' is a gendered term.

vesuvia Wed 15-Jun-11 14:37:14

A few days ago, I heard a man on Radio 4 who said "women, children and people".

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 15-Jun-11 14:42:18

Grimma - IIRC "midwife" isn't a gendered term, because it is an Old English word meaning "with the woman", i.e. the person who is with the woman when she gives birth.

"wif" used to just mean woman, I think, rather than married woman/wife.

It's just confusing because it's a bit like "fishwife" etc, but then I suppose that makes a lot more sense with the meaning of "fishwoman" (woman who sells fish) rather than woman who is married to a fish...


GrimmaTheNome Wed 15-Jun-11 14:47:07

Oh yes - I suppose the 'mid' is from the same root as germanic 'mit'

But it still sounds so much like a gendered term that I find it forgivable grin

givemushypeasachance Wed 15-Jun-11 15:02:17

I assumed that the juror's gender was given as relevant scene-setting, because a major assumption in a "juror contacts defendant" senario would be that it was in a propositioning kind of way. That's what I still assumed it was when they said both parties were female, though since they haven't mentioned their sexuality or specifically come out and said that there was that side to the relationship maybe I was wrong.

Bennifer Wed 15-Jun-11 15:09:06

I just did a quick google for male juror

I'm sorry, but I really think you might be overthinking this

GrimmaTheNome Wed 15-Jun-11 15:09:32

It sounded to me rather like 'women gabbing on FB' hmm

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 15-Jun-11 15:24:31

The "science" of googling shows 27,000 refs to "male juror" vs 42,000 for "female juror".

In addition, googling "man juror" turns up a couple of thousand results, all of which are the end of one sentence/start of another.

"Woman juror" has another 46,000.

So not really overthinking.

Bennifer Wed 15-Jun-11 15:40:48

Elephants, what does that prove? It's slightly more likely to hear the term "female juror" than "male juror".

You stated that they "wouldn't have used male juror", well google demonstrates you're wrong.

ElephantsAndMiasmas Wed 15-Jun-11 15:55:43

No it shows that people are referring to the gender of female jurors roughly 3-4 times as often as they refer to the gender of male jurors. Unless you think there is only one male juror for every four female ones?

I don't think google is the most adequate measure ever but it's one way of seeing trends.

cleverything Wed 15-Jun-11 19:41:03

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bue Wed 15-Jun-11 20:27:43

But cleverything, in the links Bennifer posted there's no reason to point out the gender - the articles are mainly about jurors being taken ill. And yet they still lead with "male juror". It's because it sets the context and gives you a picture in your head.

I'm not saying the "second sex" thing never happens (I do hate "woman juror" as opposed to "female juror") but I don't think sexist intent lurks in absolutely every corner, either. And in this case I actually think sex is quite relevant - if you're given a two-line bulletin about a male juror contacting a defendant, I instantly think "propositioning!" whether it makes sense or not. It does change the story to know it's a woman who did it.

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