Ok I admit it; I AM angry with men.

[poshsinglemum]

It's not good is it? I don't want to be but I am angry tbh.

I'm angry with the boys at school for calling me ugly.

I'm angry that there was an old boys network at school which seemed to think that I wasn't up to scratch as a female.

I'm angry with my ex for abusing me emotionally.

I'm angry with dds dad for abandoning me when pregnant.

I am angry with the patriarchy for demonising me as a single mum.

I think I am angry as I feel rejected by men in general and this somehow confirms that I am not up to scratch as a women. I know this isn't right.


I want to build better relations with me but how? Do I have to conform and fight the battle to stay young, thin, attractive and pleasing? Do I become one of the boys because apparently being myself isn't good enough.

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Agree with everything Dittany just said.

Having recently broken up with my partner, I have been astonished (really that's the right word) at the support I have found amongst female friends. If you think too much about your relationships with men, it's easy to neglect those with women. IMO those with women can be the strongest, and they are more likely to see the "real you" and understand you on a deeper level.

Women are great. The patriarchy would like us not to be able to talk to each other freely, but here we are, MNing like the subversives we are.

Best of luck.

[poshsinglemum]

I do have some lovely women friends and I do love women as a group but I have also been on the recieving end of spite, gossip and jealousy from some women.

i do wonfder WHy men have been so resistant to change? Why can;'t we ALL benefit from equal rights rather than men enjoying their priveledges? Surely there's enough to go round. There needent be so much animosity between the sexes.

[JessinAvalon]

I went through a stage of being extremely angry with men. When my ex visited a strip club with my brother on his stag do, I started asking around my peer group about their attitudes towards it. That was when I discovered feminism. The huge sense of entitlement that I came across in my male work colleagues, male relatives and male friends was unbelievable.

I started looking at some of their behaviour in a new light too. Many were having affairs and justifying their behaviour. Many thought that sleeping with prostitutes (only abroad though - in this country it's seedy, of course!) was absolutely fine, if they were in a relationship or not.

My ex was an abusive tool as well but I managed to let him convince him over a period of years that I was somehow defective. And it seemed that every mother I knew worshipped their son/s (including my own mother) and didn't pull them up on any of this bad behaviour.

I realise that some women watch male strippers and some women have affairs but it seemed by far and away the men in my peer group who did all of this stuff and, if you suggested that their wife/girlfriend might not like it, you'd get the whole "who the hell is she to tell me what to do?" argument.

I also felt angry that they could easily change their behaviour and they don't. If men stopped walking through the doors of lap dancing clubs, they'd all close down. It's not difficult to not do it.

I also felt angry at the way that men can separate women into 2 classes - those they can/should respect (family members, work colleagues) and those they needn't respect (prostitutes/strippers etc).

I am getting over my anger a little now but it did mean cutting a lot of these people out of my life (not family members though) and surrounding myself with nicer people.

I don't believe all men are like this but I don't think our pornified culture helps their sense of entitlement one little bit.

[poshsinglemum]

I have felt disrespected by work colleagues in the past.

I have some good male friends so I know that it isn't all of them.

[FlamingoBingo]

I am angry with a lot of men. And I am angry with the patriarchy...which is propped up not only by men, but by a lot of women too.

But I am not angry with men as a group. I have a man for a husband who behaves as he should (I'm trying to train myself not to say he's wonderful, because really he's no better than all men ought to be, but that obviously puts him way ahead of most men ). I also have a step-father; uncles and brothers who also behave as they should.

[FlamingoBingo]

Yes, but it is propped up by an awful lot of women too. And some men are angry with the patriarchy too.

It's not fair to say 'I am angry with the patriarchy therefore I am angry with men as a homongenous mass'.

[wukter]

I agree with flamingobingo on this one.
I think collaborators are just as worthy as ire as the oppressors because the net effect is the same, oppression. In that case the only ones who would escape my anger are active feminists - a very small group.
That to me is not feasible, so in my case I direct my anger to those who actively harm others.

[FlamingoBingo]

Blimey! Didn't expect a backlash like that!

I am a feminist. I have a very good idea of all the things you talk about. My mum was an active feminist in the 70s and 80s. I'm not stupid, thank you.

And I agree with you that the vast majority of men prop up the patriarchy. But I know too many women who do their bit to prop it up too and that angers me nearly as much as the men.

My grandma is a case in point - she's a devout Christian and is horrified by women priests, does what her husband tells her (who, luckily for her, is kind, but still sexist). She angers me. I'm angry that she still believes all this 'women are less important than men and must do what they tell them to' crap.

I know women who let their husbands treat them like shit and don't think 'this is not right, I'm not going to allow this' - they think that's their lot in life...to be under the control of a man.

I know women who join in with misogynist banter at, for example, my DH's work.

All women like this are propping up the patriarchy, whether they know it or not.

Women who turn their noses up at people who say they are a feminist.

I don't blame them - they're victims of the patriarchy themselves. But their inaction; or active involvement in misogyny; just helps to prop the patriarchy up.

If you still feel I'm wrong, please could you elaborate further without treating me like a thick idiot?

[FlamingoBingo]

And I'm not arguing with what your saying. But men like my husband did not create the patriarchy. Men like my husband do not prop it up. Men like my husband challenge casual misogyny when the encounter it. It is not fair to blame men as a group just because the majority of men do contribute to oppression. There are a lot of men who do what they can to combat it.

[FlamingoBingo]

And, I'm not saying it's not fair on men...I'm saying it's not fair on the men who are not misogynist pricks to lump them all in together.

[wukter]

I'm not keen to blame women. I'm going to blame anyone in any group who knowingly makes things worse. 'Knowingly' is key for me. Most men and most women don't analyse the system we live under. I don't think we should 'require' it, iykwim, (but we should require a basic regard for others.) In that context the 'men' and 'women' groupings are far to large to have any meaning. For me, anyway.

[HerBeatitude]

"I know women who let their husbands treat them like shit and don't think 'this is not right, I'm not going to allow this' - they think that's their lot in life...to be under the control of a man."

And you are blaming them for that?

I know women like that too, but I don't blame them, i feel sorry for them. They're trapped, they have been conditioned from birth to see themselves as not being important and to expect to be treated like shit. To blame them for the prison that has been erected in their own minds from the day they were born, seems more than a little perverse to me.

[FlamingoBingo]

Can you re-read my message, HerB?

"I don't blame them - they're victims of the patriarchy themselves. But their inaction; or active involvement in misogyny; just helps to prop the patriarchy up."

But there are women who knowingly prop the patriarchy up, whatever anyone says. There are women who actively support male supremacy.

[HerBeatitude]

BTW I know that it can be extremely frustrating to interact with women like this - I have a friend who has been complaining about her abusive husband for 8 years, but has only just got round to filing for divorce. We've been telling her for years to get out, that he'll never change, that he doesn't love her, that it's damaging her DC's etc., but the rest of society, including her family, tell her that she just has to work harder at her marriage and that he works hard blah di blah. Her unhappiness is normal for her, she doesn't know what it is to be happy because she has never been taught to be. That's really not her fault.

[FlamingoBingo]

Sorry - I have PMd you - I reacted a bit angrily to the 'are you not aware of...' bits you wrote.

I just don't understand why you're sayin g

"Where is your ire for the men who created it and still foist it on to women?"

I am furious with these men. But it is not all men, so how is it ok to blame them all?

[FlamingoBingo]

And also, my mum was in an abusive relationship with my dad for some years before he left. She stayed with him because she believed in marriage vows and he had wrecked her self-esteem, so obviously, I do not blame women in this situation. But some women who say 'oh, I don't know if we can come over, I'll have to ask DH' are not all doing it because their husbands have made them. I know lots who just automatically assume that the man is the head of the family and is in charge.