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We haven't had one of these for a while

(42 Posts)
dittany Thu 06-Jan-11 22:18:11

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dittany Thu 06-Jan-11 22:19:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

blinder Thu 06-Jan-11 22:26:59

I'm not looking at it sorry. It was a prostitution thread that sent me off on a flounce last time. Took me months to come back! Bloody prostitution apologists make me want to burn things.

JessinAvalon Thu 06-Jan-11 22:44:30

Much easier for these women to turn a blind eye and believe the happy hooker myth. I stopped buying that a very long time ago.

JessinAvalon Thu 06-Jan-11 22:45:51

The things that women will put up with amaze me sometimes. They are happy for their husbands to visit lapdancing clubs, they probably don't mind prostitutes (because it doesn't mean anything), and we're all expected to shave off our pubic hair because the porn industry has started the trend.

When are women going to wake up and stop taking all this unbelievable crap?!

dittany Thu 06-Jan-11 22:51:01

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JessinAvalon Thu 06-Jan-11 23:04:44

I was going to have an early night but am worked up now!

Honestly, why are people so willing to turn a blind eye to the truths about this industry? Does it ease their conscience or something so that they don't have to do anything about it?

I think Pretty Woman has a lot to answer for!

blinder Thu 06-Jan-11 23:08:10

Thanks Dittany.

starts burning stuff anyway just at the thought of the 'happy hooker'

Women are waking up. Loads of new feminist orgs springing up and hopefully having built up a head of steam after the massive anti-feminist backlash of the last decade.

blinder Thu 06-Jan-11 23:11:46

Jess they have internalized so many false premises that their beliefs are all to cock hmm.

They think men NEED sex. They think women NEED to be desired by men. They think sex is a commodity and that women can be bought. From that mindset, prostitution is fine. We have lots of assumptions to overthrow.

Prolesworth Fri 07-Jan-11 16:13:36

Message withdrawn

Honeydragon Fri 07-Jan-11 16:19:25

I can't join those debates, especially as often those that insist prostitution is a womans right are so often the first to demand women leave their partners if they are staying with them for financial security but are miserable. I never post as my opinion isn't right on enough sad

KatieSantaPawskitty Fri 07-Jan-11 21:28:04

Because many women don't have the answers to the insult hurled at them, which is: "What, are you a prude?" when they voice an opinion against the escort/prostitute/porno-ready-shaven-silicone-babe that's everywhere.

One word that's done more to put back women in the past five years: 'empowered'

I swear to god, the next time I hear it, ah, god, I don't know what I'll do.

JessinAvalon Fri 07-Jan-11 21:32:55

Yep, my mum waffles on about "empowerment" and "choice" if you talk about prostitution. Yet if I was chuck in my job and become a prostitute or a lap dancer she would be devastated.

Funny how it's ok when it's someone else's daughter though.

KatieSantaPawskitty Fri 07-Jan-11 21:33:25

Bit more... just getting it out really, it could apply to loads of threads...

Who do most young boys look up to: footballers

Who do footballers shag about with: prostitutes

Who do young girls have to look up to? silicone-filled, botoxed, plastic, passive man-pleasing-tits-out-up-skirt-shots-for the-lads women.

Who's pushing this shit? where's it all coming from?

Who profits?

Katiekitty Fri 07-Jan-11 21:47:06

Can anyone name any examples where men are 'empowered'?

Just wondering

(have updated my posting name in last few mins)

dittany Fri 07-Jan-11 22:15:52

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Katiekitty Fri 07-Jan-11 22:28:23

Yep, I can't imagine a scenario when you'd hear a man saying how empowered they feel about doing something. Particularly about selling themselves.

And all women have is the 'skimmed milk' version. Watered down to the nth degree.

LurcioLovesFrankie Fri 07-Jan-11 22:29:34

Dittany - on the other thread, you articulated something I've been thinking about for a long time (thanks for doing so so clearly) - how did we get into a state where so many women think that it's ok to have sex (or worse: be expected to have sex) with a man whom they don't find attractive? Quite aside from teenagers being pressured into it by young boys so that they can attain an "in a relationship" status, I've had grown women say "well sometimes it's just easier than saying no", and (as a single woman) often had people say "well why don't you go out with X", and when I've replied "but I don't fancy him" looked at me like I was from some alien planet. Writing this I feel something like despair - how do we undermine the myth of continual female availability, perpetually detached from any desire on her own part? I found that thread so depressing because of the number of posters saying "sex without desire is just something you do, isn't it, so what does it matter if you're paid for it too?" (I hasten to add I also found it intensely depressing for the myth of the happy hooker nonsense, and the fact that no one seemed prepared to acknowledge the power imbalance against which these supposedly free choices were being made, not to mention the reduction of women to f***-holes).

blinder Fri 07-Jan-11 23:28:03

I'm interested in Dittany's response to that too.

My own thoughts are that sex is seen as for male pleasure. A woman who enjoys sex is portrayed as mad or bad in the cultural narrative. So women are described as having sex for a variety of other reasons: to manipulate men into relationships; to keep men loyal; out of duty; as a tool to control men (see Stephen Fry, sadly).

So a woman doesn't need to find a man attractive for those reasons. He could be anyone with something we want and a penis.

It's also described as a sort of power over men (sex-siren luring men to their doom) bit of course it's a narrative of rape where women have sex for any reason but actual desire.

blinder Fri 07-Jan-11 23:29:13

Sorry it's late and I'm night weaning a toddler - I hope I made some sense!

LurcioLovesFrankie Sat 08-Jan-11 20:48:44

Blinder - that makes perfect sense from the point of view of male ideology. But why do so many women seem to buy into this ideology. There appeared to be articulate women on the other thread saying that they chose to have sex with men they did not desire - I couldn't get my head round what they thought they were getting out of the deal. They weren't 18 year old Victorian ingenuees lying back and thinking of England for the sake of a respectable marriage, they were not themselves prostitutes so not doing it for money so what were they doing it for? Back in the mists of prehistory when I was young and single and on the hunt for a fulfilling sex life, if a man I didn't fancy made a pass, I said no (mercifully have never been raped - I'm talking here about inexplicable consensual sex). Why would one say "yes"? (I've even been accused of being too romantic - but note, I'm not making any suggestion that you have to be in love to have sex, but I would have thought being in lust was a necessary precondition).

blinder Sat 08-Jan-11 21:56:39

Well many women also believe the cultural conditioning. In fact, it's often hard work to rid ourselves of these beliefs.

HerBeatitude Sat 08-Jan-11 22:18:42

It hasn't taken long to get from a position where women were not supposed to have sex with anyone they fancied unless they were married to them, to one where we are supposed to have sex with just about anyone who wants to have sex with us, regardless of whether we fancy them or not, has it?

Only a couple of generations...

roseability Sat 08-Jan-11 23:37:47

Can I just say don't be disheartened guys

I am ashamed to admit that I would have spouted such rubbish about sex industry workers having choice etc in my youth. In fact up until I joined mumsnet a few years ago I was so very ignorant about it.

Well reading on here has educated me and changed my opinion. I am just one person but it prooves your words do reach women.

I was the vicitm of a misogynist bully, my adoptive father. The feminist/women's rights discussions on here were part of the driving force behind realising what he is and standing up to him and cutting him out of my life

Your words do count, they really do

JessinAvalon Sat 08-Jan-11 23:55:19

That's good to hear, thanks Roseability.

I was pretty ambivalent (and ignorant) about the sex industry until a few years ago. Then I became friends with some feminists on Facebook and they continually posted stuff about prostitution. I didn't set out to learn more about it but this drip feed effect got through to me and I am now firmly against prostitution and the legalisation of it and very in favour of the Swedish model.

It's one of those things that the more I know about it, the more against it I find myself.

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