If you are vegan for environmental reasons...

[drspouse]

What would you consider adding back into your diet that's an animal product?

I'm just doing a Vegan Lent at the moment but I think I probably want to try and be a bit more planet-friendly in my eating after this.
But for example we can get free range milk produced

[ArcheryAnnie]

I'd be interested to know about honey. (Disclaimer: I am not even a vegetarian, but we often cook and eat vegan, and I'd like to do so a bit more.)

I was wondering - since bees are important for everything, and since us buying honey presumably means that it's economically viable, is it worth specifically buying honey to support beekeepers and thus increase the number of bees in the world?

[WiggyPig]

It's not just air miles that contribute to environmental issues. The cows that are just down the road - how much water do they consume in order to produce a pint of milk? What about their feed? (less of an issue in the UK but in the US, industrial farms feed cows on soya and alfalfa which represent a large part of deforestation for soya and drought in California for alfalfa - it's not almonds which are solely responsible there).

So I wouldn't reintroduce dairy. Cattle farming is pretty destructive (and I have strong feelings about keeping cows pregnant and lactating.)

Honey I can't get exercised about. I didn't eat it as an omnivore really but I can see the benefits in encouraging bees, and humans are selfish bastards so we will probably only continue to do so if we get honey back.

Eggs are more about ethics than environment for me. The males have to be dispatched obviously and even "free range" chickens are often not exactly as free range as the rural idyll picture on the box suggests. Chicken poo is not very environmentally friendly. sciencing.com/ecological-impact-chicken-farming-5005.html (US article)

A "free range" egg sandwich is permitted to contain mayonnaise and filler made out of extremely-un-free-range eggs, too, so any egg product rather than whole eggs I would say are not environmentally sound.

I'd possibly consider eating venison or rabbit which had been culled as pests. The trouble is that if everyone does that, the next thing you know there are industrial rabbit farms churning out vast quantities of rabbit poo into the local area, keeping the rabbits six to a cage and feeding them cheap alfalfa, which in turn is also industrially farmed and wreaking environmental chaos.

[Halebeke425]

I'd possibly consider taking in rescue hens and eating the eggs. However, it's been many years since I've eaten an egg so I think I'm put off them now! If I liked honey I may consider buying from a local beekeeper but I'm not keen. Apart from that, nothing.

[AdalindSchade]

I've started buying local high welfare eggs from a farm who deliver to the doorstep rather than supermarket 'free range'eggs for DS. I do buy him dairy products but trying to reduce them - he has half organic milk and half soya milk now at breakfast (he doesn't know that! )

[drspouse]

even "free range" chickens are often not exactly as free range as the rural idyll picture on the box suggests.
Yep that's why I'm curious to know what you'd want to find out about the eggs, I know it's relatively easy not to let the hens out in practice when technically they are "free range".

Hale there's a local historic house that has a flock? er? whatever! of rescue hens and sells their eggs!

Wiggy what would you do with the land that's used local to me for dairy? Unless it all went over to root/green veg, it's not much use for any other agriculture.

[AdalindSchade]

hoadsfarm.co.uk

[Windy1234]

Much of the land in the UK which is used for livestock would not be suitable for crops. The welfare standards in the UK are extremely high, water is also not an issue in the UK. I would not cut out dairy as their are many benefits to dairy, especially if you are considering local free range milk.

[WiggyPig]

@drspouse I am happy for DD to eat eggs from the chickens her gran keeps. They are not so much free range as mollycoddled but that doesn't alter the fact that male chicks are killed soon after hatch to facilitate raising the females for eggs. I don't buy commercial eggs at all and have no plans to start.

What would I do with dairy land? Well, I like root veg and green leafy veg, so if that's your alternative that's fine with me. I would be keen on more meadow land / areas that encourage wildlife and wildflowers particularly those which have reduced as farming intensifies. I'm quite fond of the occasional animal sanctuary.

I know that not all grazing land in the UK is suitable for crops - anything involving steep slopes or salt marsh is only really good for lambs - but it does not follow that all grazing land is unsuitable.

It's quite hard to separate ethical from environmental factors for my veganism TBH.

[drspouse]

There is an awful lot of Up near us plus some hefty salt marshes.
I guess what I'm thinking if all the flat land near us was root and green veg, we'd still have to get our protein from somewhere. Only animal protein really grows in the north of the UK. And for carbs you have the choice of potatoes or oats really. Or honey.

[dangermouseisace]

Ah windy being neither a vegan, nor it seems in favour of veganism you have decided to answer a question directed at vegans, on the vegan board

I am vegan, the environment being one of the reasons.
I wouldn’t reintroduce anything to be honest...although I did do eggs whilst pregnant/breastfeeding. With what I’ve learned since then I wouldn’t do it again.

Focusing on environmental considerations:

Dairy: cattle consume loads of feed- ‘free range’ are only outside during the better months, then they are in barns. Calves are taken away from the cow and are fed milk replacer, which has to come from somewhere...google suggests it’s a powder form of whey that has to be mixed with water, and who knows where the powder was produced. Cows produce tons of methane, a greenhouse gas and run off from cattle pollutes streams/rivers etc. Anti biotics are overused in farming, and are contributing to drug resistance in humans. Water pollution from farm animals is a massive problem in the UK and dairy farming is the worst for pollution incidents.

Eggs: my chicken owning/egg eating friend says she would only ever buy organic as the welfare regulations are more stringent but environment wise again, chicken farming creates pollution and there is the antibiotic problem (less of an issue with organic)...plus the whole issue about feeding chickens, energy and water use etc.

I know you say not much would grow where you are but even northern areas areas can produce barley, wheat, oats, potatoes, oilseed rape, veg...or be forest, meadows to allow biodiversity...or at least not have a load of pollution causing livestock.

Honey: humans don’t need honey, bees do. If too much is taken from a hive the bees are fed on sugar solution which doesn’t have the micronutrients in honey, and lessens the chance the bees will survive the winter. Honey bees are selected by producers for their characteristics eg docility, and this can mean that wild/more feisty bees end up having to share resources (pollen) with bees that are vulnerable to attack, reducing the potential for bees that make more evolutionary sense to survive/grow in number. Antibiotics are also used on bees. The best way to support bees is not by purchasing honey, it’s by providing pollinator plants, not using pesticides and by trying to buy organic locally produced crops where possible.

Before anyone bites my head off, as no doubt this will happen from the anti-vegan crew, the OP asked for a vegan opinion on animal produce and I have given one

[DialsMavis]

Eggs from rescued hens or fish caught by a friend

[ArcheryAnnie]

dangermouse do you happen to know if organic honey producers use antibiotics?

(I live in a top floor flat so am not in any position to provide more pollinator plants, though I do get my veg through an organic box scheme!)

[Windy1234]

dangermouseisace - I respect your opinion and at of any vegan. All I was trying to do was state facts, I respect anyones opinion for not consuming dairy/eggs however as many of the things you have listed are factually incorrect, I would recommend that anyone who is not sure whether to reintroduce dairy products, speak to a farmer or go and see for themselves/research using reliable sources. For example, organic milk will have no antibiotic use in it as any cow who needs antibiotics milk would not be allowed to go into the tank. There are very rigorous testing which goes on to ensure this. I do agree with the OP's original post and for one thing would much rather drink free range milk from this country which would have undergone very strict testing than plant milk grown abroad with goodness knows what in it. Again not dissing the vegan diet and respectful of anyones dietary choices.

[WiggyPig]

plant milk grown abroad with goodness knows what in it

The ingredients are listed on the carton

[drspouse]

I assume the ingredients are correct, but I do have more confidence that, for example, workers in the UK on dairy farms are getting their employment rights than soy bean farm workers in an unknown country, and likewise that I can find out whether the farm is destroying habitat.

[drspouse]

(And yes, I know that most soy goes into meat production)

[dangermouseisace]

archeryannie organic farmers would avoid routine use of antibiotics so there would be less chance of any being in there.

windy most of the info I typed above comes from studies quoted in the guardian/independent/ethical consumer and the cow polluting waterways info is from the UK Environment agency. I appreciate that you say you respect people’s dietary choices, but coming onto the Vegan board and arguing against one of the fundamental tenets of veganism, and then suggesting that I’m making stuff up kind of smacks of not respecting at all!. I live rurally in an area famous for its cows and run through cow fields, have a cattle farmer living a few doors down from me and have visited a dairy. I think seeing cows being miked should be enough to put anyone off, frankly. I end up running through run off (there is a local farmer who clearly doesn’t give a shit about footpaths), which is both extremely unpleasant and hazardous to our health. I agree, organic farming does have the highest welfare/environmental regulations however, it is the best of a bad bunch. There isn’t enough space on the planet for humans to drink milk, and the cows still produce greenhouse gases/pollute waterways/calves are still taken away and fed on replacer. Dairy farming of any sort still utilises a massive amount of water compared to non dairy alternatives.

Organic or ethical farming is not confined to livestock- it’s easy to buy organic and/or traceable plant milk. Alpro-one of the biggest companies gets most of its soya from France. Provamel state that 100% of its soya, hazelnut, rice, almonds and oats come from Europe. Taifun (tofu) grow their own in Germany and France. Its also easy to make your own plant milk...eg with oats, which are grown in the UK.

Here are some links to back up my claims- newspaper articles are referenced so you can click on highlighted text and it takes you to source eg gov.uk

dairy farming Guardian
farmingGuardian
friends of the Earth honey
provamel
taifun
Alpro

[dangermouseisace]

Sorry I didn’t make that clear re veganism being a ‘dietary choice’...unlike vegetarianism etc it isn’t a dietary choice, it’s a whole different way of living as it encompasses more than diet...hence the very relevant questions about the environment from the OP.

[FunnysInLaJardin]

Good lord. Who knew having your dinner could be so fraught with difficult choices!

I'm interested to know whether vegans would eat, for example the eggs from my backyard hens, or whether the egg producing industry as a whole would mean that all eggs are off the menu so to speak?

[dangermouseisace]

Nope. The vegan society explains what a vegan is, you can google them funnys

[dangermouseisace]

*nope meaning no eggs at all, not dismissing yr question

[FreeNiki]

The cows that are just down the road - how much water do they consume in order to produce a pint of milk?

Avocado. A favourite among vegans.

It takes 300 litres of water to produce 1 kilo of avocados. 1 or 2 avocados needs 300 litres of water. Plus a long haul flight, plus masses of protective plastic packing to stop them spoiling.

You were saying?

[CoteDAzur]

"The cows that are just down the road - how much water do they consume in order to produce a pint of milk?"

Who cares? It's all part of the Water Cycle (see picture). Just like the water we drink, the water that cows drink also goes out in their urine, milk, and other secretions, evaporates, rains down again, to be drunk again.

[WiggyPig]

Mmm, because omnivores never eat avocado.

“No,” you hear them say virtuously. “I am eating a beef burrito therefore I absolutely can’t have guacamole on it.”

[FreeNiki]

I cant stand avocado. Vile stuff.