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(30 Posts)
Orphadeus Fri 15-Mar-13 00:46:22

Lets examine what is in Gardasil.

Table 1: Contents of Each 0.5mL Dose of Gardasil
Material * Amount
HPV Type 6 L1 protein 20 ug
HPV Type 11 L1 protein 40 ug
HPV Type 16 L1 protein 40 ug
HPV Type 18 L1 protein 20 ug
Aluminum hydroxyphosphate sulfate adjuvant 225 ug
Sodium chloride 9.56 mg
Sodium borate 35 ug
L-histidine 0.78 mg
Polysorbate 80 50 ug
Yeast protein <7 ug

I've previously encountered Polysorbate 80.

To confirm Polysorbate 80 is Tween 80:

From the study 'Delayed effects of neonatal exposure to Tween 80 on female reproductive organs in rats':

'Neonatal female rats were injected ip (0.1 ml/rat) with Tween 80 in 1, 5 or 10% aqueous solution on days 4-7 after birth. Treatment with Tween 80 accelerated maturation, prolonged the oestrus cycle, and induced persistent vaginal oestrus. The relative weight of the uterus and ovaries was decreased relative to the untreated controls. Squamous cell metaplasia of the epithelial lining of the uterus and cytological changes in the uterus were indicative of chronic oestrogenic stimulation. Ovaries were without corpora lutea, and had degenerative follicles.'

That the rats were given more, though the 1% aqueous solution presumably takes us to 100 000th of a gram.

CatherinaJTV Fri 15-Mar-13 11:13:45

what is your concern? In the paper you cite, pinkie rats (called pinkies because they are the size of your pinkie) were given:

1%: 4x1060 microgram = 4240 microgram (4.2 milligram [mg])
5%: 4x5300 microgram = 21200 microgram (21.2 mg)
10%: 4x10600 microgram = 42400 microgram (or 42 mg)

They were injected IP, directly next to their reproductive organs (those rats are so tiny, their skin is translucent at that age and you can see all inner organs). If we go with an average weight of 12 gram per pup, your 1% group will have gotten 353'333 microgram (or 353 mg) per kilogram bodyweight (1000/12 x 4240 µg). In order to apply the equivalent amount to a 50 kilo preteen (Gardasil is given at that age), you would have to apply 17'667'000 microgram, or nearly 18 grams of pure Polysorbate 80 (that is 3.5 heaped tea spoons full - good luck getting that into three 0.5ml syringes). Instead, Gardasil contains about 50 microgram of Polysorbate 80, 3x Gardasil contain 150 microgram, that is 117000 (ONEHUNDREDANDSEVENTEEN THOUSAND) times less than those newborn rats (and it is injected into muscle, not next to the reproductive organs).

So what is your problem?

lljkk Fri 15-Mar-13 12:02:22

Let's examine what's in HPV:

Oh yeah, that's right, micro-organisms that are proven to cause death. Let's see, sure cause of death vs. bit tiny amounts of stuff that's iffy but no worse than a million other things we're exposed to in our lives. Gee, it's so hard to decide.

CatherinaJTV Fri 15-Mar-13 12:09:11

polysorbate is the stuff that keeps frozen ice cream "scoopable" - it is teh ebil!

Orphadeus Fri 15-Mar-13 14:11:47

50 ug is 0.05 mg.

If you want to argue:

3 x 0.05 mg = 0.15mg

Catherine claims the rats were given (0.15 mg x 117000) 17.5 kilos.

It appears I made an error in my first post. If 1% of 0.1 ml was Tween 80, how much does that weigh?

This a rough estimate: 0.1 ml water weighs 0.1 gram. 1% of 0.1 gram = 0.001 gram = 1 mg.

If that is reasonably accurate, the rats were given around 6.67 times more.

However, it may not be accurate. If anyone not a propagandist has access to the full txt or knows how to calculate (the molecular weight of Tween 80 is 1,310 daltons), it would be helpful.

Orphadeus Fri 15-Mar-13 14:29:05

Here's the full txt:

It makes clear the lowest dose was damaging. The question as to the weight of the doses still remains.

Orphadeus Fri 15-Mar-13 17:27:01

'The results of the present study indicate that polysorbate 80 can neither be used as a solvent for isolated tissue experiments nor when considered for intravenous administration.'

Is that a typographical error? Was 'when' actually 'be'? Its a foreign study, it may be a translation issue. 'When' makes no sense in the context of the sentence wheras 'be' does.

CatherinaJTV Fri 15-Mar-13 19:48:25

Orphadeus, I think you are quite confused. That is no wonder, since the literature you are reading is just that. That rat reproductive organ article just has absolutely no relevance to Gardasil.

CatherinaJTV Fri 15-Mar-13 19:52:07

That last article doesn't have any relevance to Gardasil either (they are applying 2.5ml = 2.5gr of pure polysorbate 80 intravenously, sheesh)

Orphadeus Sat 16-Mar-13 00:44:33

The police may want to examine the when/be issue.

With regard to the first study, it would be helpful to know whether the 1% was by volume or weight.

Catherina, polysorbate 80 is in Gardasil and was not administered intravenously. i.p. is intraperitoneal injection (into body cavity) and p.o. is by mouth. As it is the case that polysorbate 80 should not be considered for intravenous administration, clearly that is relevant.

Orphadeus Sat 16-Mar-13 00:49:16

The rats study was also i.p.

CatherinaJTV Sat 16-Mar-13 12:19:40

Orphadeus, what are you talking about?

In the rat study, more than 100000 times the amount than teenage girls are applied into the muscle are given into the body cavity of newborn rats, essentially spritzt right next to the developing reproductive organs. Have a look at them: and tell me how that compares to this:

The specific density of polysorbate 80 is 1.06, so a ml weighs 1.06gr, it doesn't change a thing (and I had factored that in to my calculation).

Your second study applied 2.5 ml of pure polysorbate 80 (as far as I can tell) per kg body weight - so your preteen would have to get a couple of shot glasses full of polysorbate 80 into the veins to suffer the same adverse effects. Instead, she'll get an amount that is not even visible into the muscle.

what is your problem?

Orphadeus Sat 16-Mar-13 14:00:58

As polysorbate 80 weighs very nearly the same as water, my calculation of around 6.67 times more was about correct whether the 1% was by weight or by volume.

The different methods of administration has to be taken into consideration both ways.

You would have to be insane to blindly claim that administrating a smaller amount directly into the blood is safer.

Presumably any 'delayed effects' (check the title of the rats study) gives room for manoeuvre.

Orphadeus Sat 16-Mar-13 14:17:27

'Residual Tween 80 in the solvent-extracted vaccines resulted in marked loss of immunogenic potency'

That it was measles..

CatherinaJTV Sat 16-Mar-13 18:24:32

Vaccines are not administered into the bloodstream.

One dose of Gardasil contains 50 microgramms of polysorbate 80. To give a preteen the dose used in those iv tests, you would have to apply over 100000000 microgramms of polysorbate 80 to her. And you call me insane? Sheesh!

CatherinaJTV Sat 16-Mar-13 18:26:18

and wow - you found a paper from 1969 on a completely different vaccine (live viral). That is not applicable to Gardasil either.

Orphadeus Sun 17-Mar-13 15:30:57

'Dr. Diane Harper says young girls and their parents should receive more complete warnings before receiving the vaccine to prevent cervical cancer. Dr. Harper helped design and carry out the Phase II and Phase III safety and effectiveness studies to get Gardasil approved, and authored many of the published, scholarly papers about it. She has been a paid speaker and consultant to Merck. It's highly unusual for a researcher to publicly criticize a medicine or vaccine she helped get approved.

Dr. Harper joins a number of consumer watchdogs, vaccine safety advocates, and parents who question the vaccine's risk-versus-benefit profile. She says data available for Gardasil shows that it lasts five years; there is no data showing that it remains effective beyond five years.'

Further on in the article:

'Dr. Scott Ratner and his wife, who's also a physician, expressed similar concerns as Dr. Harper in an interview with CBS News last year. One of their teenage daughters became severely ill after her first dose of Gardasil. Dr. Ratner says she'd have been better off getting cervical cancer than the vaccination. "My daughter went from a varsity lacrosse player at Choate to a chronically ill, steroid-dependent patient with autoimmune myofasciitis. I've had to ask myself why I let my eldest of three daughters get an unproven vaccine against a few strains of a nonlethal virus that can be dealt with in more effective ways."'

Orphadeus Sun 17-Mar-13 15:42:39

From the when/be study:

'On intravenous administration in dogs, it had a dose-dependent hypotensive effect'

'The results of the present study indicate that polysorbate 80 can neither be used as a solvent for isolated tissue experiments nor when considered for intravenous administration.'

Unfortunately the full txt is not available. What we do know is the girls are getting 0.15 mg from Gardasil. Also, it is in flu vaccine.

'Just consider that the number of women 24 years old and younger who reported trouble conceiving or maintaining a pregnancy has almost doubled.'

Read more: Increase Fertility - Fertility Problems - Fertility Help - Marie Claire

There may be various factors. Any evidence which suggests polysorbate 80 might be a factor?

CatherinaJTV Sun 17-Mar-13 17:24:03

Any evidence which suggests polysorbate 80 might be a factor?

Glad you asked: no. So move along, there is nothing to see here.

Orphadeus Sun 17-Mar-13 23:19:22

'Polysorbate 80 was identified as the causative agent for the anaphylactoid reaction of nonimmunologic origin in the patient.'

'Anaphylactic and anaphylactoid reactions are life-threatening events that result from an overreactive and misdirected immune response to a substance that is viewed by the body as foreign.'

Its not good that you have to pay to read full txt. Doctors are paid high wages to toe the line.

Orphadeus Mon 18-Mar-13 12:21:30


To identify polysorbate 80 (generally believed to be an inert vehicle) as an inductor of a severe anaphylactoid reaction.'

Congratulations! You invalidated your study - even if it was thorough.

CatherinaJTV Mon 18-Mar-13 12:24:39

The patient that paper describes has been administered a vitamin product intravenously that contains 3200x the amount of polysorbate 80 in Gardasil. Again, this doesn't have much to do with the vaccine.

Why is it so important for you to prove that polysorbate 80 in Gardasil is so ultradangerous?

Orphadeus Mon 18-Mar-13 22:01:06

3200 x 0.15mg = a little under half a gram. If you are not a bare faced liar, post the relevant passage.

Also -

Skin prick testing, enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay, IgE immunoblotting, and flow cytometric detection of basophil activation were performed in controls and in a patient with a medical history of anaphylactic shock due to intravenous administration of a multivitamin product during pregnancy'

In other words the test was not injecting a vitamin product.

Orphadeus Mon 18-Mar-13 22:29:08

Lets move on to sodium borate. Sodium borate is a synonym of Disodium tetraborate anhydrous. You can confirm that at Page 7:

At page 15 of the same link you will see it is:

Repr.1B: Toxic to reproduction
H360-FD: May damage fertility. May damage the unborn child
GHS08: Health hazard; Dgr: Danger

So there are small amounts of 2 substances in Gardasil which are injected directly into the blood and are known to be damaging to fertility.

CatherinaJTV Mon 18-Mar-13 22:46:11

Orphadeus, just because you cannot do the research behind your ludicrous scare mongering you shouldn't get rude. The paper says

in a patient with a medical history of anaphylactic shock due to intravenous administration of a multivitamin product during pregnancy

Verbatim. From your link. IV multivits come as 10ml (=10gr) vials containing 1.6% (160mg) of polysorbate 80. One shot of Gardasil contains 50 microgram of polysorbate 80 (since we are talking anaphylaxis, the one dose amount is important). You do the maths. I am not a liar. Apology (in the shape of your "ok, let's move to the next non issue, since I know I am wrong, but I won't admit it") accepted, honey.

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