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continuous efforts to withhold critical data on severe adverse reactions and contraindications to vaccinations to both parents and health practitioners

(78 Posts)
rosi7 Mon 04-Mar-13 09:04:12

rosi7 Sun 10-Mar-13 07:44:28

Sash, sorry, but how you look at things is just one way of doing it. There are other ways and I find it disrespectful to label them stupid without looking at them in detail.

Your way of dealing with an allergy is to avoid eating the food - an other way would be to avoid the food but at the same time find out the true cause of the allergy and heal it. I do know sufficient real people who were able to heal an allergy - I cannot see any stupidity in their approach.

And your example of the allergy does not quite fit - as not eating something is very different from getting something injected into your body that can have massive adverse effects.

Withholding data is very unscientific - it means you are disrespectful, dishonest and cheating. I find it stupid to believe somebody or some organization or company who does not tell me the truth. If this happened once I am willing to believe that it might have been a mistake but if it happens frequently and intentionally then I simply stop believing them. If you find that stupid - I find that a healthy way to look after myself.

DazzleII Sun 10-Mar-13 09:56:13

Good post, rosi7. smile

NotADragonOfSoup Sun 10-Mar-13 10:01:46

There is a difference between being anti-vaccination and cautious. One is stupid, the other sensible.

bruffin Sun 10-Mar-13 10:16:22

The allergy thing is perfect analogy. You are still putting something in your body that has the potential to kill you. Its a risk you balance up.
Although not eating certain foods could open you up to malnutrition, by not having a vaccine you are open to a disease that can leave you dead or with life long consequences.
The anti websites are dishonest as well. The likes of schreibner and sids which keeps being repeated around the internet.
Whale misses out years in graphs to make it look like measles was on decline.
There was that awful Angela women you like to link to who altered the kiggs figures to make it look unvaccinated are healthier.
There is the Martin walker gmc transcripts which are fairy tale but seen it repeated time and time again.

CatherinaJTV Sun 10-Mar-13 19:51:16

rosi - you are assuming that Tomljenovic is telling the truth. I am not. I would recommend Ben Goldacre's "Bad Pharma" over Lucija T every day. I would not say that she is "stupid" though. There is some very determined reputation building going on in her lab (with boss Christopher Shaw). I expect to see them as "experts" in vaccine law suits soon (most likely Gardasil) and they'll argue on the basis of the "scientific literature" they have published (almost no month goes by without a vaccine bashing article of the two at the moment). Honi soit qui mal y pense and all that. I doubt they'll be very successful, but the money is in testifying (like pere and fils Geier before they were eventually laughed out of court)...

rosi7 Sun 10-Mar-13 20:36:47

Food is something that nourishes my human body. If my body cannot cope with food anymore there is something seriously out of balance in my body.

Eating poison like aluminum or formaldehyde is certainly not nourishing my body. If some people decide that it is and feel it is a suitable comparison - it is up to them. Everybody has their choice.

If pharmaceutical companies and vaccination industry would fulfill the requirements of a scientific approach which includes openness, transparency and giving all the data requested, there would be no need to seek information with conspiracy theorists. They only fill the vacuum.

Withholding data and information but claim to be scientific at the same time does not fit together - and for me - to be quite honest - it means abusing science for the sake of manipulation.

bruffin Sun 10-Mar-13 21:00:21

Nuts would kill my son as would sesame seeds.
Everyone had the potential to become allergic to foods like that at any time so you are taking risk overtime you eat them.

Aluminium occurs in your every day food,
a baby has its biggest body burden of aluminium the day it is born which has crossed the placenta while in the womb . Formaldihyde is also made naturally in your body.
Eating too much of any food will damage your body just as a small amount of aluminium will not do damage just as too much of most foods could do you harm.

bruffin Sun 10-Mar-13 21:01:21

The websites you get hour info from are not open or transparent.

CatherinaJTV Sun 10-Mar-13 21:02:26

rosi - do you eat oranges or bananas? Packed full of formaldehyde - it is a normal metabolite in our bodies that we break down with a half life of 1 to 1.5 minutes. The dose is the poison and all that (think the pinch of salt that your body needs to function and the tablespoon full of salt that would make you vomit). Did you know that orthorexia is a disease? ( - you do read German, if I recall correctly?)

rosi7 Sun 10-Mar-13 21:19:31

Vaccination and pharmaceutical industry claim to be scientific, open and transparent. So they have to deliver the proof of playing the game according to the rules.

What everybody else is doing is up to them. If they are or are not, claim to be or do not claim to be scientific, open and transparent - it does not take the responsibility from the vaccination industry to meet the claims of science.

DazzleII Sun 10-Mar-13 22:19:40

You don't do your "cause" much good when you are so rude, Catherina.

bruffin Sun 10-Mar-13 22:29:25

Doesn't do a cause any good when you come on a thread specifically to make a personal attack which is against the talk guidelines of MN

DazzleII Sun 10-Mar-13 23:02:26

I came on the thread to read the OP's link, which is very useful to me and others. I hope she will continue to link to this kind of thing, but she won't if she is continually subjected to personal abuse, and if no-one decent stands up for her.

DazzleII Sun 10-Mar-13 23:05:48

It is not against Talk Guidelines to point out when a poster's post is rude, which is what I have done. Accusing the OP of being orthorexic is however a personal attack.

bruffin Mon 11-Mar-13 02:56:27

I do know sufficient real people who were able to heal an allergy - I cannot see any stupidity in their approach

Nobody knows why allergies happen so anyone claiming they can find the cause then heal it is a quack.

Suspect they are the type of people who use kinesiology or Vega machine NAET to diagnose a non existent allergy then miraculously heal it. There is no evidence that any of this works.

There are allergy specialist who are curing allergies such as peanut at the moment but its still in the experimental stage but it looks very promising.

rosi7 Mon 11-Mar-13 05:58:46

Dazzle, thank you for pointing out the rudeness. It is a common pattern of behavior that those who dare to express their concerns about the effects of vaccination are either being ridiculed or attacked in a very disrespectful and powerful way.

I personally do have great respect for people who have the courage to speak out their own truth despite the fact that they might be the only ones amongst millions of people thinking the opposite and within a system holding all the power in terms of money and information.

But - thank God - we are moving out of a world of institutionalized monopolization of power and information - and this process is not reversible - the world is going there and the process is accelerating.

specialsubject Mon 11-Mar-13 14:22:52

very few truths are absolute, except gravity and the fact that smallpox is no longer in the population. Now, how did the latter happen?

CatherinaJTV Mon 11-Mar-13 15:44:11

Rosi - I am sorry you feel offended. What I wanted is to point out that it is nigh impossible to not eat formaldehyde and that people can get so obsessed with what they eat that it becomes a disease (not saying you have that, just saying that it is currently becoming a recognised disease, not unreasonably).

Further: there is such a thing as "opinion" and everyone is entitled to their own. However, facts are facts and no one is entitled to their own facts.

I do disagree that information becomes monopolised, too. On the contrary - more and more sources are now open access, especially scientific outlets (you shouldn't get vaccine information from the media anyway ;) ).

rosi7 Mon 11-Mar-13 17:06:06

Catherina - I did not say that I feel offended.

I agree. Facts are facts. But if a person, an organization or a company withholds part of the facts the facts they deliver are useless or even dangerous as they do not mirror reality but are used to manipulate people.

bruffin Mon 11-Mar-13 20:24:34

Its a pity you don't hold the same principles for your sources rosi

rosi7 Mon 11-Mar-13 21:05:34

Bruffin, it's a pity you haven't read my comment earlier.

Here it is again:

What everybody else is doing is up to them. If they are or are not, claim to be or do not claim to be scientific, open and transparent - it does not take the responsibility from the vaccination industry to meet the claims of science.

bruffin Mon 11-Mar-13 22:30:55

I have read it but hypocritical to want open and transparency in one industry then relying on completely unscientific and unproven therapies yourself. Not only that but you promote them as cure.

rosi7 Tue 12-Mar-13 06:15:09

What means unscientific? It is no less scientific to rely on a healing method which present science in its limited framework cannot yet explain than relying on a system that abuses scientific methods to distort the results.

Bruffin, your viewpoint is very limited. In your world still everything that cannot be explained does not exist and therefore all of these people are quacks as you labelled them earlier.

We have moved into a world where the understanding of quantum mechanics and neuroscience are flooding us with so much research and information that all the "quacky" stuff seems to be valid so that more and more medical doctors are integrating it in their daily work.

Like the "quack" that healed an allergy. She was an ordinary medical doctor, Bruffin, working in a hospital and as an emergency doctor. All she did was using alternative complementary medicine like color light to achieve healing.

bruffin Tue 12-Mar-13 08:27:05

Quantum mechanics
Your very funny Rosi

CatherinaJTV Tue 12-Mar-13 08:30:50

the understanding of quantum mechanics and neuroscience are flooding us with so much research and information

none of which supports "alternative" "healing" approaches. You may get better explanations of placebo effects, but what we have mostly seen over the past decade are solid studies finding what methods are indeed ineffective (see "Trick or Treatment" by Edzard Ernst and Simon Singh). Or take this fantastic research and information from Neuroscience/Human Genetics:

SCN1A mutations were identified in 11 of 14 patients with alleged vaccine encephalopathy; a diagnosis of a specific epilepsy syndrome was made in all 14 cases.

I must have missed when Natural News,, Mercola, and the other "alternative" outlets covered this in their newsletters, warning parents not to jump to conclusions over temporal associations between vaccination and epilepsy, because intractable epilepsies are usually genetic.

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