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I have to put in writing that I am taking responsibility for the risk that my baby might die from not vaccination

(315 Posts)
StarlightMcKenzie Fri 30-Nov-12 13:50:03

The exact words the nurse spoke!? shock

I'll put something in writing if that is what they want but not that.

Apparently they have a duty to inform the HV of the risks that I am taking and have I heard the recent news oday of all the babies dying?

I'm bloody cross with this nurse tbh.

My DC are unvaccinated.

I have never been asked to sign or write anything on the subject, in any of the 4 different areas that I've lived in and had HV involvement in.

If I was asked to, I probably would btw, but it would only be simple confirmation that I was making an informed decision.

StarlightMcKenzie Fri 30-Nov-12 14:55:44

For those of you wondering, as I mentioned before, I have different reasons for the different vaccinations and the sitution is complex.

But here is one to illustrate:

My DB suffered a rare form renal failure as a child from an immune response. I was genetically tested for compatability for an emergency kidney transplant and found to carry the gene responsible. My children have not been tested.

My DB's Consultant was unclear as to the exact cause of my DB's renal failure, but that the research at that time suggested a likeliness of being one or two causes (or both together). These were the DTP, and/or having had measles recently.

Now no-one will test my children for the renal failure predisposition gene (if that is actually what it was they found - no idea, I was 7) and nobody will give me any information that I can understand on latest developments on my DB's issues.

None of this means the DTP will harm my children of course, but so what? It doesn't mean it won't.

FushiaFernica Fri 30-Nov-12 15:02:31

Make a complaint about the nurse, her wording is apalling. No parent should be forced to vaccinate their child.

GalaxyDisaster Fri 30-Nov-12 15:02:41

Ah, I see Queen, I wasn't sure if you were responding to me saying you did need to put it in writing if you were agreeing to vaccination (at least in my area).

Starlight - the nurse sounds horrid, but I agree with you, I would just put the 'for your file' wording you suggested.

LadyIsabellaWrotham Fri 30-Nov-12 15:18:25

I'm with Bingo, I think that putting it in writing is important to distinguish people like the OP, who has reasonable grounds for suspecting that her DCs' vulnerability to an adverse reaction is higher than average, from the kneejerk "woo, chemicals bad" brigade, (including the ones who will choose "homeopathic safe alternatives"), and the "needles are painful" mums.

There are a small but significant number of parents who, when asked to say "I accept that if I decline vaccination my child may catch an actual disease which is sometimes fatal" will say "errm, actually I've changed my mind". The ones who've thought it through should be prepared to sign up to it, and then have their decision accepted. None of us want to gamble with our DCs' health but on this issue we have no choice; we have to pick red or black and place our bets one way or another.

Congratulations on your admirably rational stance about revisiting your decision when you get a reminder OP - you never know when a new test might be available. It sounds patronising to praise someone for rationality, I'm sorry, but it's in pretty short supply these days do I think it needs a round of applause whenever spotted in the wild.

OneMoreChap Fri 30-Nov-12 16:00:08

I don't think anyone should have to vaccinate their children. At all.
Mostly, I think they are pretty damn foolish if they don't do do so and stuff like

you really should not advise people to do something that anyone with half a brain knows isn't 100% safe makes me wonder where catching mumps, measles, infecting some poor pregnant random with rubella, polio comes in with all that.

I realise there'll be some whiny arse "Well, I'm not vaccinating PFB because all you lesser folk have so there's herd immunity" and I'd liken that to the idiots who think Wakefield was right and yes, there's a proven link to Autism.

I just think if you choose not to vaccinate, you shouldn't be admitted to public services, like schools, buses, trains...

naughtymummy Fri 30-Nov-12 16:18:43

Starlight surely your GP can access your file, to check which test they did age 7 ? I can't understand why they wouldn't' agree to test your dcs.

Whooping cough is horrible and can leave infants with a lifelong weak chest if not fatal.

Presumably you realize these diseases are serious and can be rarely fatal. So why is it a problem to put that in a letter ? (Confused)

Deux Fri 30-Nov-12 16:35:21

Starlight, have you discussed it with your GP?

Reason I ask is that I wasn't asked to sign anything about (currently) declining vaccinations but my GP did take a detailed family history and he did write it up on DCs notes.

FWIW, he agreed my stance was 'sensible given the circumstances'.

A bit like you with your brother, no one has been able to tell us exactly why my sister was left brain damaged after whooping cough vaccine. And the fear is too great for me.

Oh, and my lovely GP did offer me single vaccines if I wanted and that his door was always open.

So maybe that's why I've never been harassed or harangued about it. Can you speak to your GP?

Badvocsanta Fri 30-Nov-12 16:48:40 you know I am very pro vaccination and both my dc are.
But you have very valid reasons not too and surely the nurse knows that??
There are valid reasons not to vaccinate and a hcp should be aware if this.
Some children do get damaged by vaccines but I chose to weigh up that against the benefits.
For me the benefits outweighed the possible dangers.
Wrt to WC..I wasnt immunised (there was some sort of scare about the vaccine in the early 1970s...sound familiar??) and I nearly died of it when I was 12 months old. My aunt still goes pale whenever it is mentioned.
These illnesses are a very real threat to countless children and babies but you know that.
You are making the best decision you can wrt yur children.
IMO the reason there is an outbreak of WC ATM (there was another in 2008) is that the bacteria has mutated.
And the WC vaccine does nt confer lifelong immunity.

Lougle Fri 30-Nov-12 16:49:26

"Presumably you realize these diseases are serious and can be rarely fatal. So why is it a problem to put that in a letter ? (Confused) "

There's a big difference between knowing the risks of leaving your child unvaccinated and stating 'I know my child could die because of my choice.', which is what Starlight has been asked to do.

A more neutral 'I have been appraised of the risks and benefits of the vaccination programme and at this time do not wish to participate. In the future, if I change my mind I will contact the surgery, but until that time I do not wish to be sent further reminders.' should suffice.

naughtymummy Fri 30-Nov-12 16:55:56

Yes Louglee. I think the nurse was being alarmist.

naughtymummy Fri 30-Nov-12 16:58:12

May be she had just transferred an uniimmunized child to hospital with WC.

LadyIsabellaWrotham Fri 30-Nov-12 17:10:21

I don't think a letter like you proposed would really make the kneejerkers think Lougle. It's too abstract, too much like something you sign on a mobile phone contract without reading it. We all need to understand that the risks are real either way.

StarlightMcKenzie Fri 30-Nov-12 17:10:52

naughty There is nothing on my file about the test. I was 7 so don't remember the details but at a guess my test was not for my benefit. It was done at the Royal Machester Children's hospital for the purpose of being able to call on me at a moments notices for my kidney, although it was pointed out that they would not consider me until I was both and adult and had completed my family.

I had the test because I was 7 and my mum told me to. The genetic information came from my DM agreeing they could use my blood for sibling research (as the condition is rare) so again, not for my benefit. The information was given verbally and not with any serious concern iirc, just that we all (all siblings) have very similar genetic patterns.

DB and I have never shared the same PCT.

I spoke briefly to my GP about it at the 6 week checkup when she raised the vaccination thing (because she was confused I was there at 6 weeks as they like to do the 6 week check at 8 weeks and combine with first vaccs) and gave the name of DB's disease which she admitted she'd never heard of, and wrote down to look up but I haven't seen her since (I don't go to the GP very often). She offered me an appointment with the vacc nurse but conceded that she wouldn't be able to help me with my fears about my DB's disease, and considered it unncessary to investigate me or the children wrt it.

So we kind of left it as that.

saintlyjimjams Fri 30-Nov-12 17:19:13

Maybe she'd just transferred an immunised child to hospital with WC. Pertussis really isn't a good example to use to prove the point you're trying to prove as it is pretty much agreed that for whatever reason the current outbreak has been triggered by the vaccination not providing immunity at population level in the way in which it was expected to (and indeed used to).

Now whilst that isn't necessarily an argument for refusing pertussis jab it does alter the risk - benefit ratio somewhat.

naughtymummy Fri 30-Nov-12 17:20:37

I see if research then possibly not. Any tests done are copied in to GP s and medical records should be lifelong.

Personally I wouldn't' withhold a potentially life saving vaccination from children with out knowing the details, but I do accept everyone is different. FWIW medical genetics has exploded as a field in the last decade. Chances are the tests are now far more routine.

naughtymummy Fri 30-Nov-12 17:21:43

Are your Dm or db still around to get details from.

StarlightMcKenzie Fri 30-Nov-12 17:22:12

Yes. I had both the vaccine and WC. Same goes for measles and rubella and mumps for that matter which also makes me concerned about immune issues for my family.

naughtymummy Fri 30-Nov-12 17:23:42

I accept that. All the cases that I have seen have been immunized babies.

StarlightMcKenzie Fri 30-Nov-12 17:25:05

'Any tests done are copied in to GP s and medical records should be lifelong.'

You'd think. But I appear to have 2 nhs numbers to add to the mix, and one of them has me down as male. No-one seems to be able to do anything about it, - but that is a whole other thread............

StarlightMcKenzie Fri 30-Nov-12 17:27:35

yes. DB not interested in talking about it. Pretends there is nothing wrong with him, especially right now as newly married and transplanted kidney just beginning to fail. DM doesn't think she has any right to share DBs issues without consent, although I think she's forgotten most of it anyway.

Deux Fri 30-Nov-12 17:29:36

I had WC vaccine but still got WC too.

naughtymummy Fri 30-Nov-12 17:29:48

That does seem unusual. I think for measles about 10% occurs in immunized people.

My Ds is immunized and had a cough thing recently which I thought might have been pertussis. However because he is 8 and/or immunized he got over it quickly.

naughtymummy Fri 30-Nov-12 17:32:23

Out of interest how old were you ? The immunity only lasts 5-10 years apparently.

StarlightMcKenzie Fri 30-Nov-12 17:32:58

naughty I have additional grounds for witholding vaccinations atm and without the db thing may still have chosen to to vaccinate at this time.

fwiw, I am not anti-vaccine per se. but I don't think on an individual level things are straightforward.

However, on a population level no-one has been able to show me any research that shows me what changes in a newborn between 1 and 2 months that makes vaccs safe in the latter but not former, or why the dosage is the same even if you delayed it for a few years and have a bigger body to put it in.

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