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Advice from those who delaying or haven't vaccinated

(61 Posts)
looseleaf Wed 07-Nov-12 21:58:19

I strongly feel DD was affected adversely by her very early vaccinations and when I looked up their ingredients 3 years on I was also horrified she was given levels (of mercury or aluminium, my sleep deprived brain no longer remembers) way above the recommended amount deemed ok.

I've since seen a summary of an independent study suggesting that non-vaccinated children are 4 times less prone to various health problems - I'm not trying to make any arguments here as it's such an emotive subject but I want to ask , when u have such a very strong gut instinct not to vaccinate this time round, and have read widely (, and I've also consulted a private doctor who's studied the subject extensively and raised lots of wuestions rather than dictate answers) have I still come away afraid to stand firm with my instinct - ie do you too find yourself patronised or spoken to aggressively by health professionals?

Please give me any advice as I'm so worried and we've just joined a new surgery where the receptionist was frankly rude when I said we're deliberately delaying DS' vacs (he's 16 months). I kept very calm and confident but I worry am going to have problems and if only they understood the hours and hours I've spent researching and deliberating over making what I feel is the right decision (DH trusts me but is programmed with the rest of us to feel vaccines aren't to be questioned )

No debates please as I do need help from anyone in the same boat and reassurance that surely I'm not alone? I really feel so angry at my total blind faith the first time and wish I'd at least waited a couple of months even for dd's immune system just to develop a bit first?

Sorry for my stressed post and DC's health stresses me out as dd (fully immunised btw) has had a tough health history

Spidermama Sun 10-Feb-13 17:45:40

Thanks for that link mummyinthemiddle. I've never come across them before. I wish I'd known about such a group at the time I was making the decision. I felt quite alone but it seems the body of questioners are growing. I guess with the democratisation of the media and with ease with which one gets hold of information these days that's ineviatble.

Exciting times.

Spidermama Sun 10-Feb-13 17:41:36

OP I have four unvaxed children who's aged btween 14 and 8 and the hardest part of all has been the hostility of others.

Adverse reactions are SCANDALOUSLY unreported. The dangers of measles are overstated. The 'herd protection' argument goes totally unquestioned.

It's a tough path to take but I am true to myself and, having read fantastic arguments on both sides I totally stand by my convictions. By the way I had never even heard of Dr. Wakefield when I made my decision.

Good luck to everyone on this path. I hope one day a proper unbiased debate can take place so that parents get ALL the information they deserve, not just that which makes someone the most profit.

mummyinthemiddle Sat 09-Feb-13 22:29:23

OP, you are not alone. There are other like minded people. My DC's are not vaccinated. I haven't had that much contact with the medical establishment, mainly because my children are so healthy! the worst I have experienced was some sarcastic comments from one gp (not at my surgery). I think you will find that you will encounter the most negativity from other parents. From speaking to others, I think that as long as you explain that this is not a desicion you have made lightly, but an informed decision based on your own research, you shouldn't encounter too many problems

I'm not interested in debating the pros and cons here, I just wanted to let you know that you are in a position to make your own decisions regarding your child. Have you heard of Arnica?

CatherinaJTV Sat 09-Feb-13 08:54:01

what is more important, the seperate M, M and R are no longer available. You may still be able to get dodgy, imported measles and rubella vaccines, but single mumps you cannot get from anywhere. So while single M, M and Rs don't have any benefit to begin with (apart from lacing your private GP's pockets), it would now be even more irresponsible to start with singles, because your child would never get the full protection against all three diseases.

14 pertussis deaths in 2012.

JoTheHot Sat 09-Feb-13 08:39:13

Wow - tons of disinformation in the previous post. Probably to be expected if you get your vaccine info from facebook ffs.

The one death you're talking about is from measels. You conveniently ignore mortality from all other vaccine-preventable diseases, not to mention all the other misery and disabilities. Even the figure you quote for measels is wrong, it's actually two.

And finally, all that low mortality proves is that vaccines work. If you don't believe that, look at mortality pre-vaccination or in the third world.

SimLondon Fri 08-Feb-13 22:57:22

Wow - tons of scaremongering on this thread - how many children have actually died in the last 10 years in the UK due to not being vaccinated? ANSWER: One, a traveller child who had underlying health concerns.

However doctors practices do have targets - they have to have 98% vaccine rate.

I went with all vaccines bar the mmr, I spaced them out though - i wouldnt want 9 vaccines in 3 injections in one day so why is it ok for a toddler to have it? because its cost effective for the NHS.

For the mmr, i went the seperate jabs route and paid privately.

Food for thought.

CatherinaJTV Thu 07-Feb-13 19:39:46

Vaccine Truth is so badly anti-vaccine that it almost looks like parody. Certainly not a place for information (unless you are researching for a Fringe show).

rosi7 Thu 07-Feb-13 13:04:14

looseleaf, maybe you will find some support here:

specialsubject Thu 31-Jan-13 22:49:04

the content of the vaccine list posted intrigued me, so I looked up what I needed to.

30.8 micrograms of pneumococcal purified capsular polysaccharides - active ingredient
32 micrograms of CRM197 protein - active ingredient
aluminium phosphate -to increase the vaccine efficacy. NO EVIDENCE that it is harmful.
sodium chloride - scary stuff, that.
succinic acid - found in plant and animal tissues.
polysorbate 80 -surfactant and emulsifier
water for injections - dihydrogen monoxide is a well known killer.

yep, pro-vaccine. Met people suffering a lifetime of polio aftereffects, great-grandmother died of TB, have seen photos of smallpox. No treatment for measles.

Emsyboo Mon 14-Jan-13 15:42:47

For the record - pro vaccine poster here
However I think the post is getting away from OPs original post.

I think from the emotive response you can get a good view of how people will react to your DC not getting vaccinated but good for you for not just following blindly.

Vaccines are on the whole very safe and have been fantastic for saving lives ,y grandparents brothers and sisters died of diseases like TB and measles but now these are much rarer and fewer people die from them (helped along with better medical treatments). No one can argue vaccines have been very good on the whole.

However, no child is the same and few can have an adverse reaction, if you suspect your child may have a reaction then yes you should do more research but look at the pros and cons if you can give a balanced argument showing you have looked at all the options then they will take you more seriously.

But you do need to look at the credible research quoting anti vax stuff will not win you any support - even if there is truth the way it is written is heavily biased (so are some pro vaccine sites so choose your citations wisely).

I personally hope that whilst doing this research you feel better and get your child vaccinated as other posters are correct we rely on herd vaccination. But herd vaccination is not 100% of the population and it is better to do the research and have valid reasons not to vaccination than the 'I just won't bother' or 'my child is more special'. Vaccination will help your child if they come into contact with this illnesses they will have the armoury to try and fight it - it will not make them completely immune though but without the vaccination they may have a more serious reaction.

My sister had epilepsy therefore did not have the original vaccine for whooping cough as the mercury that used to be in it caused some children to fit. There is not a one shot fits all I'm afraid or we wouldn't have this controversy.

Goodluck in your decision and thanks to other posters some of the links are very useful epsecially bruffin.

ElaineBenes Tue 13-Nov-12 20:49:20

Oh and fever/flu in pregnancy is associated with autism

How amazing that we have an invention to prevent flu in pregnancy!

And another invention which means kids are less likely to get sick and less likely therefore to need paracetomol.

ElaineBenes Tue 13-Nov-12 18:39:24

Funnily enough, paracetomol use has been associated with higher rates of asthma in children.

bruffin Tue 13-Nov-12 15:29:13

He may be a doctor, he is just a gp. He has been prosecuted by the advertising standards for false advertising. He was told to stop doing it but carried on and has been told to stop it again. He makes a living from the scaremongering from his book at his Harley Street clinic.

The studies that you have linked to are the same study, which is based on an older version of dtap.

Tabitha8 Tue 13-Nov-12 13:57:54

Richard Halvorsen unreliable? He is a doctor.
How about that instead, then?
Or that?

bruffin Mon 12-Nov-12 20:13:06

Realised where you got that info from looseleaf, it was Richard Halveson, again a fairly unreliable source.

ElaineBenes Mon 12-Nov-12 18:36:53


I don't want to be rude or antagonistic but - seriously???? That 'study' you linked to is your evidence???

This is precisely the problem. Your hours of research on the internet does not give you the tools to distinguish between good and credible research and 'research' which is just ridiculous. This is why your GP won't take you seriously.

Of course, you have the right to have your concerns taken seriously, especially if you believe yoru child to have been adversely affected by a vaccine, but please don't assume that hours of research on the internet equates to being well informed unless you can back that up with an ability to critically evaluate research and evidence and an understanding of the concepts involved. I suggest you go talk to your GP with an open mind rather than excpecting them to take seriously the kind of evidence you're presenting.

Regarding polio, the oral polio vaccine (OPV) has the potential for vaccine induced polio. The risk is very small, much smaller than the disease but it's there (1 in every 2.7 million first doses). The big advantage though of OPV is that it's cheap and easy to distribute and also provides herd immunity. But clearly one wants to avoid a situation where the risk of polio from the vaccine is greater than the risk of polio infection (even if both are very small).

The one that is currently used in the UK and in other developed countries is the inactivated polio vaccine (IPV). This is more expensive and delivered through an injection. You don't have the risk of vaccine induced polio but you also don't get herd immunity as someone who is vaccinated but infected with polio won't contract the disease but will be able to spread it (due to low levels of immunity in the gut from this vaccine). IPV is one of the SAFEST vaccines in use so delaying polio vaccine doesn't really make much sense especially given the lack of herd immunity. If polio is imported into the UK (which could happen), if you're not vaccinated you could easily be infected as vaccinated people can transmit the disease (but not become ill themselves).

bruffin Mon 12-Nov-12 14:23:20

informedparent is a dodgy website and the study was based on ringing up parents.

another study

more information
kiggs study

looseleaf Mon 12-Nov-12 13:33:29

Thanks bruffin, I'll look when DS less busy (Internet hard to get to at moment as he climbs everything!). One link and I'll try and dig out a more mainstream one when time. Not wanting to be antagonistic but curious and genuinely keen to know truth so going to read yours properly . Thanks

Beaaware Mon 12-Nov-12 13:33:11

stargirl1701, being infected with a contaminated batch of vaccines is not the same as having an adverse reaction to a vaccine. If you receive a contaminated vaccine then you need to be seriuosly worried, but from what I know you will never find out batch numbers nor will you get helpful advice from the manufacturers, in other words no one will ever own up or be held responsible, they can literally get away with murder. In the case of the bse likely contaminated vaccines, there were clusters in some areas of the UK of young people dying from vcjd,some even went to the same schools, did they have the same vaccines, highly likely.
If cows are still developing bse in the UK and they are then vaccine manufacturers need to reassure the public on the packaging that the contents are 'BSE' free.

worldgonecrazy Mon 12-Nov-12 09:06:25

Thanks - so polio is not on the increase. I wonder why there is scaremongering about that vaccine? Perhaps it is because there are people around who do remember when polio was a problem in this country? It does seem strange that such a rare disease worldwide gains so much publicity in the UK? Maybe it's because this is seen as a succesful vaccine?

DD hasn't had the polio vaccine - if she ever decides to travel when she grows she can make her own decision.

Beaaware Mon 12-Nov-12 08:59:58

I do absolutely agree with you of course vaccines benefit people but I think you mis-understand my argument, if the contents of the vaccine were 100% safe i.e labelled 'from BSE free tested herds' then this would be okay with me. There has recently been a case of a cow with bse that was exported from the UK to Switzerland, what happened to this cow's mother and family, siblings, did they go into the food and medicine chain untested. In light of the bse crisis we should have more openness, transparency with vaccines, had my friends son not had the BCG vaccine he would be alive today. No one has ever been held accountable for his terrible death, only compensation is on offer.

bruffin Sun 11-Nov-12 21:27:42

no link between asthma and vaccinations

updated no link

again no link

and the IOM which did a recent review of vaccine safety makes no mention of the connection. adverse effects of vaccines: evidence and casuality

stargirl1701 Sun 11-Nov-12 20:47:59

It is the case that from the NHS/Govt point of view has to be the benefit to public health that vaccination brings. If a few (statistically) people have an adverse reaction then it just has to be accepted. Herd immunity must be maintained. How can they have any other view? I support this - even risking my own child's health. For those who cannot be vaccinated.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

Beaaware Sun 11-Nov-12 20:38:36

stargirl1701, I was talking about the pneumonia vaccine in particular, but I do know a family that lost their 24 year old son to human mad cow disease, route of transmission they believe was likely contaminated batch of BCG vaccines. Yes I agree we are very lucky to live in a country that offers free vaccinations but we also very unlucky to live in a country that has exposed 58million or more people to human bse, these 58 million people cannot ever donate blood overseas because of this reason. We all want to trust that whatever goes into our bodies is safe but as we do not screen/test people for a disease that is infectious how can we trust what we are told especially when vCJD is mentioned on patient info.

bruffin Sun 11-Nov-12 20:18:14

Link to them please.

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