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Advice from those who delaying or haven't vaccinated

(61 Posts)
looseleaf Wed 07-Nov-12 21:58:19

I strongly feel DD was affected adversely by her very early vaccinations and when I looked up their ingredients 3 years on I was also horrified she was given levels (of mercury or aluminium, my sleep deprived brain no longer remembers) way above the recommended amount deemed ok.

I've since seen a summary of an independent study suggesting that non-vaccinated children are 4 times less prone to various health problems - I'm not trying to make any arguments here as it's such an emotive subject but I want to ask , when u have such a very strong gut instinct not to vaccinate this time round, and have read widely (, and I've also consulted a private doctor who's studied the subject extensively and raised lots of wuestions rather than dictate answers) have I still come away afraid to stand firm with my instinct - ie do you too find yourself patronised or spoken to aggressively by health professionals?

Please give me any advice as I'm so worried and we've just joined a new surgery where the receptionist was frankly rude when I said we're deliberately delaying DS' vacs (he's 16 months). I kept very calm and confident but I worry am going to have problems and if only they understood the hours and hours I've spent researching and deliberating over making what I feel is the right decision (DH trusts me but is programmed with the rest of us to feel vaccines aren't to be questioned )

No debates please as I do need help from anyone in the same boat and reassurance that surely I'm not alone? I really feel so angry at my total blind faith the first time and wish I'd at least waited a couple of months even for dd's immune system just to develop a bit first?

Sorry for my stressed post and DC's health stresses me out as dd (fully immunised btw) has had a tough health history

bruffin Sun 11-Nov-12 09:53:46

There is no connection between allergies and vaccination, or in fact immunity problems. Family of nut and seed allergies
The diseases we vaccinate against do have connections to immunity problems ie rubella and arthritis and measles and mumps to diabetes.

StuntNun Sun 11-Nov-12 10:18:57

I hadn't heard of that before DowninDorset. It does seem unlikely given that the allergic response and immune response are mediated by different components of the immune system which would make a link between the two unlikely. More research needed probably smile

CouthyMowEatingBraiiiiinz Sun 11-Nov-12 10:30:42

All my DC's have been fully vaccinated by Reception age. But given our family history of allergic reactions and other adverse reactions to vaccines, I vaccinate at a much slower rate, through choice, than the guidelines recommend.

I do believe that whilst each individual vaccine may be safe, it is the combined effects of giving so many vaccines at once that worries me, after extensive research. (My DD was due her MMR at the exact same time as the discredited report by Dr Wakefield (?) was published, so I did extensive research around the subject then, and have done with each subsequent DC.)

So, they have one vaccine at a time, at least 4-6 weeks apart, to give their still developing immune system time to recover. They still end up having had all their vaccinations before Reception age, though.

I don't have an issue with the MMR per se, more that it is given at the same time as other vaccinations, when the body is already dealing with a triple vaccination.

And I don't give the first dose of MMR until 2yo, because I feel that their immune system is far more developed at 2yo than it is at 1yo.

Trazzletoes Sun 11-Nov-12 10:42:55

sassh it could happen to my DS... Not whooping cough necessarily, but he's fully vaccinated so far and then... Chemotherapy. He can catch anything going faster than I can blink. And that measles? Yes, that's got a decent chance of killing him.

He is completely at the mercy of herd immunity... Or lack of it. I know everyone does what they think is best for their child but we are powerless in the face of other people's decisions.

CouthyMowEatingBraiiiiinz Sun 11-Nov-12 10:43:49

The reason Polio is making a comeback? Because instead of the drops that used to be used, they are giving it as an additional injection now. At the same time as the DTP AND the Men C.

The injection actually has far more concerning ingredients in it than the drops did, though the drops were a live vaccine and the injection isn't.

I chose to have the DTP first, as per the usual schedule, the Men C 4 weeks later, and the polio vaccine 4 weeks after that.

This is the course I have taken with my DC's, as I feel that it is not just the amount of mercury and aluminium in one vaccine that needs to be considered, but the amount in all the injections you are giving your tiny baby at once.

I think that the immunisation schedule tries to pack too many vaccines into too few Doctors visits. Money based? Definitely. If it takes you 6 times as many GP visits to complete the immunisations, then that stops the GP's from seeing other patients.

Yes, there's herd immunity to consider, but I don't think putting my DC's at risk of allergic reactions and other adverse effects from the sheer amount of vaccines at the same time is outweighed by herd immunity. That is selfish, I grant you, but my DC's will always come before other people's.

In a plane crash, I wouldn't be helping other people's DC's to safety UNTIL I had ensured that my own DC's were safe first. That's life. We are all here to protect our own first and then extend that out after.

CouthyMowEatingBraiiiiinz Sun 11-Nov-12 10:48:57

I understand how you are feeling, Trazzle. My DS is frequently immune suppressed due to medication for his asthma. Chickenpox is my worst fear, that would have a good chance of killing him. But we don't vaccinate against that!

I know it is hard relying on others to do the right thing, like I have to rely on other people keeping their DC's with CP indoors until the last scan is crusted over.

However, I am not going to rush putting all these things into my DC's in one go when I feel that that will put MY DC's at risk of harm.

It's not that I'm not going to do it, I just want to slow the schedule down.

bruffin Sun 11-Nov-12 10:54:37

Caught is no evidence that mercury or aluminium in vaccines cause a problem. Its.
They tiny amount of aluminium a baby gets in the first year is a fraction of the body burden allowable. Babies are exposed to far more aluminium through gristmill,and food.

Trazzletoes Sun 11-Nov-12 10:59:39

couthy I have the same pox fear so am vaccinating DD on Dr's advice to reduce the chance of him getting it as she is still at nursery but at least, if I know he's spent time with someone that develops it, the Drs can give him something to fight it off.

I don't think there's anything wrong with delaying vaccines. I'm just trying to explain that it's a pretty horrible place to be in when the choice of having your child protected is completely taken away from you and you are entirely reliant on other people having had their DCs vaccinated. There is nothing I can do to keep my child safe from these illnesses bar keeping both DCs in the house permanently.

worldgonecrazy Sun 11-Nov-12 14:53:16

Can someone point me to the information about polio making a comeback? As far as I know it's held steady at around 1,000 notified cases worldwide for the past few years, and is only endemic in three countries. Even India has been given the all-clear following two years of no notified cases.

There have been no cases in Western Europe for quite a few years now - even with the large amount of travel we have in the UK between countries such as China and Afghanistan which still have polio.

bruffin Sun 11-Nov-12 15:07:45

latest figures on polio

looseleaf Sun 11-Nov-12 20:12:59

Bruffin there has in fact been a link made between vaccinations and allergies (and asthma) but perhaps you just haven't heard if it.- and that delaying them by even a couple of months can help the immune system to cope better. I've come across this finding in several studies and read for example that delaying DPT by 5 months halves the incidence of asthma. It may well still be best to immunise promptly and I'm just raising it as I had no idea when dd was born (and she went on to develop allergies to wheat, dairy, tomatoes, soy, nuts, citrus so quite an important consideration; we have no history of allergies).

bruffin Sun 11-Nov-12 20:18:14

Link to them please.

Beaaware Sun 11-Nov-12 20:38:36

stargirl1701, I was talking about the pneumonia vaccine in particular, but I do know a family that lost their 24 year old son to human mad cow disease, route of transmission they believe was likely contaminated batch of BCG vaccines. Yes I agree we are very lucky to live in a country that offers free vaccinations but we also very unlucky to live in a country that has exposed 58million or more people to human bse, these 58 million people cannot ever donate blood overseas because of this reason. We all want to trust that whatever goes into our bodies is safe but as we do not screen/test people for a disease that is infectious how can we trust what we are told especially when vCJD is mentioned on patient info.

stargirl1701 Sun 11-Nov-12 20:47:59

It is the case that from the NHS/Govt point of view has to be the benefit to public health that vaccination brings. If a few (statistically) people have an adverse reaction then it just has to be accepted. Herd immunity must be maintained. How can they have any other view? I support this - even risking my own child's health. For those who cannot be vaccinated.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

bruffin Sun 11-Nov-12 21:27:42

no link between asthma and vaccinations

updated no link

again no link

and the IOM which did a recent review of vaccine safety makes no mention of the connection. adverse effects of vaccines: evidence and casuality

Beaaware Mon 12-Nov-12 08:59:58

I do absolutely agree with you of course vaccines benefit people but I think you mis-understand my argument, if the contents of the vaccine were 100% safe i.e labelled 'from BSE free tested herds' then this would be okay with me. There has recently been a case of a cow with bse that was exported from the UK to Switzerland, what happened to this cow's mother and family, siblings, did they go into the food and medicine chain untested. In light of the bse crisis we should have more openness, transparency with vaccines, had my friends son not had the BCG vaccine he would be alive today. No one has ever been held accountable for his terrible death, only compensation is on offer.

worldgonecrazy Mon 12-Nov-12 09:06:25

Thanks - so polio is not on the increase. I wonder why there is scaremongering about that vaccine? Perhaps it is because there are people around who do remember when polio was a problem in this country? It does seem strange that such a rare disease worldwide gains so much publicity in the UK? Maybe it's because this is seen as a succesful vaccine?

DD hasn't had the polio vaccine - if she ever decides to travel when she grows she can make her own decision.

Beaaware Mon 12-Nov-12 13:33:11

stargirl1701, being infected with a contaminated batch of vaccines is not the same as having an adverse reaction to a vaccine. If you receive a contaminated vaccine then you need to be seriuosly worried, but from what I know you will never find out batch numbers nor will you get helpful advice from the manufacturers, in other words no one will ever own up or be held responsible, they can literally get away with murder. In the case of the bse likely contaminated vaccines, there were clusters in some areas of the UK of young people dying from vcjd,some even went to the same schools, did they have the same vaccines, highly likely.
If cows are still developing bse in the UK and they are then vaccine manufacturers need to reassure the public on the packaging that the contents are 'BSE' free.

looseleaf Mon 12-Nov-12 13:33:29

Thanks bruffin, I'll look when DS less busy (Internet hard to get to at moment as he climbs everything!). One link and I'll try and dig out a more mainstream one when time. Not wanting to be antagonistic but curious and genuinely keen to know truth so going to read yours properly . Thanks

bruffin Mon 12-Nov-12 14:23:20

informedparent is a dodgy website and the study was based on ringing up parents.

another study

more information
kiggs study

ElaineBenes Mon 12-Nov-12 18:36:53


I don't want to be rude or antagonistic but - seriously???? That 'study' you linked to is your evidence???

This is precisely the problem. Your hours of research on the internet does not give you the tools to distinguish between good and credible research and 'research' which is just ridiculous. This is why your GP won't take you seriously.

Of course, you have the right to have your concerns taken seriously, especially if you believe yoru child to have been adversely affected by a vaccine, but please don't assume that hours of research on the internet equates to being well informed unless you can back that up with an ability to critically evaluate research and evidence and an understanding of the concepts involved. I suggest you go talk to your GP with an open mind rather than excpecting them to take seriously the kind of evidence you're presenting.

Regarding polio, the oral polio vaccine (OPV) has the potential for vaccine induced polio. The risk is very small, much smaller than the disease but it's there (1 in every 2.7 million first doses). The big advantage though of OPV is that it's cheap and easy to distribute and also provides herd immunity. But clearly one wants to avoid a situation where the risk of polio from the vaccine is greater than the risk of polio infection (even if both are very small).

The one that is currently used in the UK and in other developed countries is the inactivated polio vaccine (IPV). This is more expensive and delivered through an injection. You don't have the risk of vaccine induced polio but you also don't get herd immunity as someone who is vaccinated but infected with polio won't contract the disease but will be able to spread it (due to low levels of immunity in the gut from this vaccine). IPV is one of the SAFEST vaccines in use so delaying polio vaccine doesn't really make much sense especially given the lack of herd immunity. If polio is imported into the UK (which could happen), if you're not vaccinated you could easily be infected as vaccinated people can transmit the disease (but not become ill themselves).

bruffin Mon 12-Nov-12 20:13:06

Realised where you got that info from looseleaf, it was Richard Halveson, again a fairly unreliable source.

Tabitha8 Tue 13-Nov-12 13:57:54

Richard Halvorsen unreliable? He is a doctor.
How about that instead, then?
Or that?

bruffin Tue 13-Nov-12 15:29:13

He may be a doctor, he is just a gp. He has been prosecuted by the advertising standards for false advertising. He was told to stop doing it but carried on and has been told to stop it again. He makes a living from the scaremongering from his book at his Harley Street clinic.

The studies that you have linked to are the same study, which is based on an older version of dtap.

ElaineBenes Tue 13-Nov-12 18:39:24

Funnily enough, paracetomol use has been associated with higher rates of asthma in children.

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