handling horrors :( please help

[TenderlyLovinglyByAGoat]

not sure how related to hunting it is, because he was becoming anxious and naughty on the ground on lesser scale beforehand, but has escalated to dangerous now and I think there is a connection since he exploded during the hunt - he actually relaxes and eventually goes beautifully once I'm on. But I am scrambling up the side of something that, mostly, the front of which is in the air. He calms significantly instantly. Obviously it is scary. And a lot to ask of people, to help.

His behaviours were very bad, a vet is coming to check for injury/illness so it would be great if he had a toothache or has put his back out or something like that but my gut feeling is that he isn't in pain. He settles and will school and jump beautifully, but I don't want to describe what happens when trying to lead and tack up. It's bad and there is too much risk of someone, anyone, getting hurt or worse. It seemed to settle then flared up with people leaving for opening meet, he saw the plaits, the gear, smelled it in the air or whatever.

Any ideas, assuming vet eliminates physical problems?

[Olderyetwilder]

No ideas tenders, but loads of sympathy. Do you think just turn him out for a couple of weeks chill out (and no/minimal hard feed) could help him get his head together?

[TenderlyLovinglyByAGoat]

I don't know. Since the first morning out he hasn't eaten anyway, obviously he grazes, but bringing him in to feed or even offering an apple = whites of eyes, sweating, rearing. It's a bit extreme.

I think working relaxes him, but might not have a choice but to keep him as an expensive and slightly scary field ornament?

[Mirage]

No ideas here either I'm afraid,but sympathy,as I've had problems with dpony leading.I've got an Intelligent Horsemanship lady coming out to me in about 10 days to see if we can improve things.She is currently on tour with Monty Roberts and I'll be interested to see what she suggests.In our case,dpony had an early history of being difficult and I think my nervousness in handling it aggravates the situation.

If you are interested,I can pm you with her suggestions,once she's been.

[Olderyetwilder]

God, it all sounds really upsetting. Has anything happened to upset him? Has he always been difficult like this? I'd personally be too terrified to handle him so you've got more guts than me. Trouble is, even field ornaments have to be handled. I really hope you can find out what's wrong and sort him out.

[TenderlyLovinglyByAGoat]

He spent two nights in his stable, this wound him up a little, possibly everything else (the hunting especially but fireworks too) on top has combined? I can abandon the stabling idea (although was thinking of him, his old legs in mud and his weight etc) but of course he always wintered in before and just got a little fresher to ride. He was safe to handle.

I feel embarrassed typing this but I desperately want to ask the vet about toxicology, have this horrible recurring fear that he is being poisoned. How mad would it sound if I asked if there are any plants or substances he might have ingested that could have these effects? Really I know it is unlikely and everything else points to, I don't know, heightened state of fear for whatever reason but can't let go of the thought. I know, I hope, nobody would do it on purpose. I don't even know if there is anything that causes such dramatic changes?

[Olderyetwilder]

Not mad at all, you need to get to the bottom of what's causing it, so no harm in checking with the vet (or doing some research yourself) as to whether there's anything he could be ingesting that could cause behaviour change. I'd imagine that it's unlikely that anyone's actually poisoning him though.

Do you think it's possible that he's just got really stressed/over-excitied, and then because his behaviour's so difficult handling him has become loaded with anxiety, and a bit of a circle's set in? That's why I wondered about just letting him chill for a bit, but you're dead right to rule out anything physical

[AlpinePony]

Like Mirage I got an RA (recommended associate) out to deal with some ground problems I was experiencing - pony was a scary horror - put me on the ground and jumped on me - and my nerves had my horse going and I was scared to mount - which of course made her behaviour worse.

A few hours with the RA and problems solved. :)

[Saggyoldclothcatpuss]

Right, I've spoken to Louise, she says if you think he is eating something dodgy,then your gut might not be far out, but if it is also since you moved yard, it could just be heightened excitement levels, due to a more highly charged atmosphere.
Another suggestion is that he is being bullied, either by a person or other horses, is anyone else dealing with him? It sounds almost like a panic attack. We have one like this, he never used to let you mount using a stirrup, he would go ballistic. Is there somewhere he can go out with your horse alone, or be stabled away from the busy part of the yard? It's awful, but Lou says this may e just not the yard for him!

[Saggyoldclothcatpuss]

She also said he could be quiet whilst riding because this is his comfort zone, he is away from whatever is stressing him out.
Tack or bit problems would probably be the other way round, quiet until he is tacked up.

[Saggyoldclothcatpuss]

Or, he is just traumatised by the hunting and sees the handling, preparation as the build up, and quietens down when he realises you aren't going?

[Pixel]

I'm just wondering if your pony figures in this anywhere. I take it they've been out together all summer, are they particularly close? (or he's got attached to another horse maybe). Could horse be suffering anxiety because he can't see pony when he is stabled? If you have the pony nearby when you tack up etc, is he just as bad or more settled?

[TenderlyLovinglyByAGoat]

lots to think about there, thanks everyone and yes very interested in the IH thing via pm or here, thanks - pixel nails it, brought him in (not in in, just in little enclosure at top of field) with pony and tacked them up simultaneously and then (this was a three person job obviously) two of us mounted simultaneously. Definitely huge surge of anxiety every time he thought something was happening to pony that wasn't happening to him.

Thought the pair bonding thing had pretty much been broken now they are part of a herd, we've had a lovely long summer during which they've been separated several times for shows or riding in the school or solo hacks. I suppose the extra very big stressors have made him less able to cope with separation? Poor boy.

Also saggy has point about yard, although they both (especially pony) changed dramatically for the better when we moved, whole place has changed pace for winter, from drifting along lazily all summer to increased energy and excitement with all the hunting and team chasing and stuff. MY FAVOURITES. :(

Have poss chance of a 14.2 cob for winter who has hunted, pc, sj etc with view to buy - think comes with biggish price tag if we want to keep him though. He's 5. So horse can retire from his very short but memorable hunting career.

[Pixel]

But when you've separated them before for shows or hacks, he's been outside with other horses nearby I expect. He's known that pony would be coming back but by stabling him you've changed the routine and now he's not so sure. (plus all the other excitements of hunting and fireworks). Have you tried giving him some kind of calmer to help 'de-stress' him a bit?

[Mirage]

I'll pm you as soon as the IH lady has been,Tenderly,she is coming next Friday.I'm reassured that you found it useful AlpinePony.

[TenderlyLovinglyByAGoat]

thanks :) tried to get magnesium in but let's not relive that struggle right now

totally back to normal today, came in with pony, meek as anything, lovely hack (just walk and trot, one of my hands is shredded even through gloves, both very sore - he is a bit strong at moment so am trying to limit damage there!) and back in field

still not feeding him, just happy he has found his head and will wait a while before riding him on his own. Love him, wish I wasn't such a twat. He has cooked his goose as far as hunting goes though :(

[Saggyoldclothcatpuss]

Not all horses are suited to all disciplines, he obviously just isnt a hunter!
Are you sure that nobody else is handling him and maybe upsetting him?

[TenderlyLovinglyByAGoat]

it's pretty unlikely, the place isn't staffed like an actual yard, just a working farm with various people coming and going and looking after their own horses - can't imagine anyone having the time or inclination to interfere with someone else's horses, especially mine who are not easy to catch! And other people would see and comment on it, wondering why it isn't me or one of my sharers. It would be a very odd thing for one of the other liveries to do, and a stranger would have the dogs set on them! Or be trampled to death by the cow.