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How much goodwill ?

(117 Posts)
Ronaldo Sat 02-Mar-13 17:01:19

I am supposeing that since this is the staffroom and therefore inhabited by teachers mainly?

So, I am just wondering how much you are happy to do as extras ( unpaid and because you are nice folk) before you start saying enough is enough?

Do you draw the line at additional duties? Bus duties , coming in onm a day off ( part timers), school changing school day and requiring more hours for the same pay, school demanding easter revision classes for students on own time? Attending PM and management meetings in ones own time. How about things like trapped time? How much is reasonable - and where is unreasonable?

Also , how doyou expect to be communicated with? e mail. notes,letter, verbally? Not at all? Told or negotiated with? Do you expect a " Hi Guys" management speak tone from someone you do not know ( colleague ) or good English? Where do you draw the line on palley tone (when you are strangers in all but name) with SMT?


Arisbottle Sat 02-Mar-13 22:45:48

Is the point of PM not to set your own targets?

ProphetOfDoom Sat 02-Mar-13 22:46:35

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Ronaldo Sat 02-Mar-13 23:03:27

Is the point of PM not to set your own targets?

Is it? I havent been allowed to set my own targets. We have done it for two years now ( last year and this one). Last year I was told what my targets were. They were totally useless to me. Required me to do things that had nothing to do with my teaching ( based on whole school targets which were lower school and where I do not teach ) and one even included my completing a course which I paid for and which I did in my own time and was nothing to do with the school at all - but passing it became a necessity, even though I only signed up for interest ( and I had not planned on doing the assignments).

I was very miffed by that.

None of my targets have been set by me. They have been handed down to me. Hence I cannot see why I have to have " face time" ( another of those awful words) to do it.

Arisbottle Sat 02-Mar-13 23:08:54

Our staff set their targets which should reflect the schools development plan and their personal development needs . So not a completely free choice but it should be something you have control over.

Ronaldo Sat 02-Mar-13 23:09:34

btw, my targets for this year are to be something to do with providing additional support for G&T ( and I do not have any in my classes anyway - not those on the register ,and I have a G&T doc already written and have done for a long time) and something to do with integration of all students in the school ( not sure what that means) and the obligatory ALIS and VA.

These are whole school targets and I have to meet them with some sort of extra work to evidence I have seen them and am doing what I have to do for them ( and I have to specify this to my line manager , although its susually him who tells me what he expects me to do, not me setting anything ) - but as I said, they do not relate to my job or my teaching..

Ronaldo Sat 02-Mar-13 23:12:08

I have also, apparently to set aside some of that trapped time whereI may feeably be out of school doing another job , to go and watch other teachers teach! I do not know who I will be given. This is a whole school thing.

Why I do not know.

Arisbottle Sat 02-Mar-13 23:16:28

I would love a chance to watch other teachers teach , very valuable and does not happen often enough.

lpy101 Sat 02-Mar-13 23:35:54

I had a similar situation once where I was asked to come in for a parents evening on my day off. I pointed out in the teacher's pay and conditions booklet it said that a I wasn't expected to come in.

They backed down on that occassion but from the following September, all part timers had to be contracted on the day the parent's evenings took place. Didn't really mind that but did object to arranging/paying for childcare and driving for 3/4 of an hour when I wouldn't get paid!!

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is take a look at the P&C document, see if it is of any help and then shove it up that idiot's backside!!

Good luck!!

Ronaldo Sat 02-Mar-13 23:39:53

Arisbottle, I am sure it is good to watch others teach but I do not see why I should be doing that in my own personal (and unpaid ) time. If I had a paid free ( which I think is where most other teachers will be arranging this) , fair enough. If the gave me cover and allowed me time off ( difficult in my particlar role) fair enough. If the school pay me to be there, fair enough. But they do not.

TheFallenMadonna Sat 02-Mar-13 23:40:37

That doesn't apply to independent schools though does it? Nor to academies if they choose to change...

TheFallenMadonna Sat 02-Mar-13 23:45:05

You need to sit down with the Head and make this clear. Or get another job.
How easy would that be? My school would for example have no problem employing a Maths or Physics teacher PT A level only. English or Biology, not so much. But my school is not what you would be after!

Arisbottle Sat 02-Mar-13 23:47:48

But if I go and watch a colleague teach in my paid free , I would then have extra work to do in my own unpaid time. But I would still do it.

I do think it is wrong that you have no frees and it makes me wonder why they are making life so difficult for you.

Ronaldo Sat 02-Mar-13 23:48:59

Yes, Ipy, I think you may be right. I thinkI may well have to point to my pay and conditions. I know they know it. When I actually say " Sorry, I am not here", the DH or HT usually back it up. If they want me there ( say for cover) they will pay me as " supply" . They do that from time to time when they need extra cover - it saves bringing in an outside supply.

But if I say I have something planned, they do not force it (unlike this SMT guy). We had the matter of part time pay and conditions clarifiedtwo years ago and it was recognised that those like me had different conditions. I accepted that my timetable might have some trapped time ( wasnt expecting as much as I ended up with) but it was also acknowldeged that I could not be made to do any duties in that time or attend meetings.

But it has gone to the winds with my new line manager - who doesnt seem to know the situation, mainly because I suspect, he hasnt got the leadership from the old girl ( battleaxe!) who would gently tell SMT such as him who could be asked to do what. She left a couple of years ago ( early retirement) largely because she too didnt like the culture change. HT and DH live in ivory towers on the top floor and never seem to know what is going on now.

Ronaldo Sat 02-Mar-13 23:54:02

FallenMadona - I wouldnt get another job. I would do what many have done before me and just retire. As for my school finding someone to replace me in my role? Best of luck to them (and they know it) although the way they treat me you would think otherwise.

They have lost three teachers this term. They have advertised but been unable to replace any of them ( no applicants). All specialists. ( One just walked out without giving notice - I didnt find out why). I am expecting to see a big dip in A level results this year.

Rowlers Sat 02-Mar-13 23:54:29

You should be under no obligation to stay on site for "trapped" time.
When you arrange next year's timetable, I would push for having PPA time built in - it should be 10% of your teaching load, so if you teach 10 hours, you are entitled to 10%, 1 hour per week.
I attend INSET days pro rata, so I teach 0.5 timetable and attend 2.5 days in one year. I try to attend the ones which are on days I would be at work anyway.
I attend all parents' evenings - if they are on days I don't work, the school pays me the hours.
With regard to PM, it sounds to me as if your school isn't really on top of this and hasn't got it right. PM should be about ensuring all staff are up to speed on certain issues, receiving training if necessary, about staff pursuing areas of interest and need specific to them, and about staff / school working towards the school aims.
Your targets should be relevant to where the school is aiming to get to, but clearly need to be relevant to your teaching practice.
When it comes to meetings, our school has weekly meetings set out on calendar - I don't work on the day we have our fac meetings so never attend. If I need to see HOD, I do this perhaps in my PPA time, or over lunch, or after school. If it is hugely important and there is no work-around, they have to take staff off timetable and cover the lesson.

breatheslowly Sun 03-Mar-13 00:00:44

I'd look for a new job as they clearly don't give a shit and don't recognise that they are being unreasonable.

Ronaldo Sun 03-Mar-13 00:04:11

Arisbottle,in truth they are not " making life difficult" for me - at least they do not think so. The problem is they do not think. Full stop.

They are making life difficult for lots of staff like me. As I said we lost 16 this year. 3 remain un replaced. We took two who are really not up to the job just because they were the only applicants. Basically the new management cannot manage to run a bath let alone a school.

They constantly forget that there are several types of contract. Having given me a timetable which traps me in school for threee full days they have forgotten that the time is still mine and are effectively treating me asa full timer teacher ( in fact there has always been a tendency to treat me as a full timer even though it was known I am not. Usually I have not bothered. This time it is pissing me off annoying me.

Previously my timetable has been reasonable , three days but early finishes or late starts and maybe one full day. Not three days with bugger all in the middle for five hours.

Ronaldo Sun 03-Mar-13 00:04:40

I am thinking to leave.

Rowlers Sun 03-Mar-13 00:06:38

I think I would, unless the next academic year shows more promise

Arisbottle Sun 03-Mar-13 00:09:25

My experience of senior management is that they always think , there is always a reason why they do things.

I am intrigued by your school, would the other staff have left anyway ?

FelicityWasCold Sun 03-Mar-13 00:11:18

This trapped time thing is odd in the independent sector- most schools would allow you to be offsite at this time as a matter of course.

I have some experience of odd independent contracts which fall outside the norm. Can you PM me the name of your school? I might be able to give you some more specific advice. Not to worry if you don't want to give it away.

Arisbottle Sun 03-Mar-13 00:11:27

Sorry I read that you lost three staff , in fact it is 16. That is a lot. In our state school we may lose about five or six a year , absolute tops.

I would be very concerned if I was sending my child here and furious if I was paying thousand a year - in my case probably about 100k a year .

Is it a well known school?

Ronaldo Sun 03-Mar-13 00:16:51

No, none of the staff would have left Arisbottle. Several had been there a number of years. they were top of their games. Our results weretop because they were top. Most cited privately that the new SMT were the cause.

The SMT - all of whom have come in the last two years - are useless. They have a state school mentality and seem to fail to nderstand how public schools work. We are not about Teaching and learning and performance management. We are about giving an edge and a liberal education.

Some of the old hands say, stick 'em out and they will be gone in two years and all will get set right. The school only works because of the good will of the staff right now. I know several who ignore the SMT , but I find it hard to do that.

Of course it is now seeping through and a lot of people seem to have found out there is an ethos change ( as I said even MNers have been discussing whether they want their kids in our school. I stayed out of the conversation but clearly its got out).

Ronaldo Sun 03-Mar-13 00:19:06

We have lost 3 this term. We have lost 16 in the last year - most leaving last summer. Of those we have not been ableto replace several and we filled 2 places with only applicants ( not good). We lost another teacher the beginning of term who just walked out ( dont know why).

Thats aside of the two who were appointed and never came! I dont count them

Ronaldo Sun 03-Mar-13 00:19:48

Oh absolutely well known Arisbottle

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