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When The Queen dies...

(94 Posts)
sunnyjune Sat 28-Apr-18 14:34:26

And Charles becomes King, will William become the new Prince of Wales?

Kate would then become Princess of Wales and I just wonder if they'd want another Princess of Wales.

I know it's been almost 21 years since Diana's death, but it still seems so fresh. The title is still so heavily associated with Diana, I wonder if William and Harry would want that.

Childrenofthesun Sat 28-Apr-18 14:37:50

Historically, the male heir to the throne has always been called the Prince of Wales, so I'd be surprised if that didn't continue.

DumbledoresApprentice Sat 28-Apr-18 14:47:28

It would be very strange if she wasn’t known as the Princess of Wales. William will be Prince of Wales and I think he would expect his wife to have the title Princess of Wales. I’m in my 30s and whilst I do associate the title with Diana it doesn’t seem odd to me that someone else would be Princess of Wales. I was young when Diana died and for anyone much younger than me the association probably isn’t very strong at all.

WhatLineyDidNext Sat 28-Apr-18 14:50:43

Camilla is HRH The Princess of Wales.

However she has chosen not to be styled as such.

Rainydaydog Sat 28-Apr-18 14:55:09

I think they would like the connection with Diana. William famously gave Kate his mother's engagement ring and her red dress she wore to go home with the new baby was thought to be a nod to the red outfit Diana wore with her baby (I think I was Harry).

WhatLineyDidNext Sat 28-Apr-18 14:56:15

Mind you I don't blame her. Although I think the lying low because of Diana's sainted memory has probably had its day, now. She'll be queen consort, no matter how she's styled.

We have this rather antiquated system, like it or not.

AlpacaLypse Sat 28-Apr-18 15:02:00

I'm not sure actually that the eldest child of the monarch DOES automatically become Prince/Princess of Wales. There was a thread touching on this in Chat a couple of days ago. Someone said something about Charles not becoming Prince of Wales until his mother gave him the title. They may have been mixing it up with his investiture in 1958 though.

MyDcAreMarvel Sat 28-Apr-18 15:06:36

thought your title was a “ complete the sentence” mine was “ all the decent tv programs will be cancelled” .grin

EdithWeston Sat 28-Apr-18 15:11:01

They don't get it automatically, there has to be a specific investiture. But it is a normal title for the eldest son of the monarch, so I expect that'll happen at a convenient time after the succession.

I don't think enough people wouid mind the idea that the wife of a future Prince of Wales being known as the Princess of Wales (the displeasure was only about the second wife of the current one, because of marital history).

BishopBrennansArse Sat 28-Apr-18 15:12:33

@WhatLineyDidNext yeahbut Camilla won't be by then, she will be Queen Consort so yes Kate will be PoW

SenecaFalls Sat 28-Apr-18 15:13:12

The eldest son of the monarch is usually created Prince of Wales but it is not automatic. The queen inherited the throne in 1952; she made Charles Prince of Wales in 1958. He was ceremoniously invested with the title in 1968 at which point he had been Prince of Wales for 10 years.

CocoaGin Sat 28-Apr-18 15:14:05

I think Catherine will be delighted to be known as the Princess of Wales as opposed to Kate Middleton. The media are so rude calling her by her maiden name when she's Catherine Cambridge.

NorthernLurker Sat 28-Apr-18 15:15:54

Charles will bestow the title on William. What's more interesting is the Duke of York title. If Andrew pre-deceases Charles then Charles could bestow that on Harry. However given the age gap it's more likely that William will end up bestowing it on Prince Louis. When Anne dies and William has succeeded, Charlotte will be Princess Royal.

RancidOldHag Sat 28-Apr-18 15:16:13

She calls herself Middleton though - eg on the French court documents.

And Princes who don't really have a surname use their father's titles when they need one. So William and Harry are Wales, though George is Cambridge.

Curtainshopping Sat 28-Apr-18 15:19:02

Will Harry become Duke of something when he gets married?

tribpot Sat 28-Apr-18 15:20:14

I wondered why the Queen had not been Princess of Wales whilst she was the heir to the throne - because her dad could theoretically have had a son and displaced her in the succession.

AnchorDownDeepBreath Sat 28-Apr-18 15:22:18

The media are so rude calling her by her maiden name when she's Catherine Cambridge.

She requests to be called Middleton - and infact does so herself on documents, for example the French legal documents. It's not rude at all, for once, it's following the way she wishes to be addressed. She also asks the charities etc that she works with to do the same.

TheKimJongUnofFeminism Sat 28-Apr-18 15:22:59

"The media are so rude calling her by her maiden name "

Oh, I don't know. She might. W a Mumsnet Feminist!

ILikeMyChickenFried Sat 28-Apr-18 15:26:26

I think Catherine will be delighted to be known as the Princess of Wales as opposed to Kate Middleton. The media are so rude calling her by her maiden name when she's Catherine Cambridge.

hmm

There's really nothing offensive about people using a maiden name. I choose to use my husband's surname bit if someone used my maiden name I wouldn't care.

In Kate's case I think it's used because Kate Middleton fits better into a headline than the longer Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge.

diddl Sat 28-Apr-18 15:27:17

I thought that she was "Middleton" on the French documents as that was their system.

I thought that she referred to herself as "Cambridge".

Whatever she's called-she's the DIL of a future King, the wife of a future King & the mother of a future King!

ILikeMyChickenFried Sat 28-Apr-18 15:27:47

Will Harry become Duke of something when he gets married?

It's widely thought the Queen will give him a dukedom on his wedding day like she did with William, otherwise Meghan will be titled Princess Henry

Calatonia Sat 28-Apr-18 15:32:53

* RancidOldHag Sat 28-Apr-18 15:16:13*

She calls herself Middleton though - eg on the French court documents.

No, that is how they do it in France.
Elderly expat ladies are ruglarly bemused to be called by the maiden names they have not used for upwards of 50 years when they find themselves in french hospitals or whatever.

Bramble71 Sat 28-Apr-18 15:34:42

I think that William will be made Prince of Wales and be given the Duchy of Cornwall as his source of income, I'm not sure it's all automatic though. At the moment the Duchy supports Charles, Camilla, William & Catherine and their brood and Prince Harry (and Meghan when she joins the family next month).

ILikeMyChickenFried Sat 28-Apr-18 15:38:49

I imagine there was a delay with Charles as he was still a child at the time?

TheKimJongUnofFeminism Sat 28-Apr-18 15:49:14

The Queen made a speech in Wales when Charles was a child saying something about when he was grown up she'd bring him back and show him to the people. Or die thing like that.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g Sat 28-Apr-18 15:50:55

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge

This is a very long and detailed article in The Guardian about what will happen when the Queen dies. More really about the immediate arrangements than the OP's point, but fascinating all the same, in a morbid kind of way.

Tamingoftheglue Sat 28-Apr-18 15:54:28

Hasn't it been speculated that Harry will get the Dukedom of Sussex when he marries?

TheKimJongUnofFeminism Sat 28-Apr-18 15:55:40

I think Clarence would be rather fun.....

elisenbrunnen Sat 28-Apr-18 16:02:12

I thought it was reported that Harry would be Duke of <some place in Ireland that the Queen holds; I can't remember> and there was outrage because it's <the place in Ireland> not even in UK?

Wdigin2this Sat 28-Apr-18 16:05:27

Yes, she will become Princess of Wales, and their children will become Prince George of Wales etc.

timeistight Sat 28-Apr-18 16:05:48

Connaught 😊 That idea's not going down too well in certain quarters.

My money's on Sussex.

elisenbrunnen Sat 28-Apr-18 16:07:21

That was it - Connaught.

SeriousChutzpah Sat 28-Apr-18 16:13:20

Oh, I thought this was going to be about the various protocols on what happens when the Queen dies, like the 'RATS' warning on the BBC --

This Guardian article is completely fascinating on the mechanics of what has been rehearsed:

For people stuck in traffic, or with Heart FM on in the background, there will only be the subtlest of indications, at first, that something is going on. Britain’s commercial radio stations have a network of blue “obit lights”, which is tested once a week and supposed to light up in the event of a national catastrophe. When the news breaks, these lights will start flashing, to alert DJs to switch to the news in the next few minutes and to play inoffensive music in the meantime. Every station, down to hospital radio, has prepared music lists made up of “Mood 2” (sad) or “Mood 1” (saddest) songs to reach for in times of sudden mourning. “If you ever hear Haunted Dancehall (Nursery Remix) by Sabres of Paradise on daytime Radio 1, turn the TV on,” wrote Chris Price, a BBC radio producer, for the Huffington Post in 2011. “Something terrible has just happened.”

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/16/what-happens-when-queen-elizabeth-dies-london-bridge

SeriousChutzpah Sat 28-Apr-18 16:14:19

Oh, x-posted with Gasp. It's fascinating, though, isn't it?

SenecaFalls Sat 28-Apr-18 16:27:35

I imagine there was a delay with Charles as he was still a child at the time?

Probably, but he was still a child when he was made Prince of Wales, only 9 years old. In the two previous instances there were much shorter delays. Prince Edward, who became Edward VIII, was made Prince of Wales only a month after his father, George V, became king. But George had to wait eight months. His father became king in January 1901 and George was not made Prince of Wales until November 1901, supposedly in part because Queen Alexandra was not yet ready for someone else to take over the title Princess of Wales, by which she had been known for so long.

sunnyjune Sat 28-Apr-18 16:59:17

It's really interesting!

Good point from PP about Princess Charlotte one day becoming Princess Royal, I hadn't thought of that!

I think because Camilla chose not to use the Princess of Wales title, the idea of 'The Wales's' is still heavily associated with Charles, Diana, Wills and Harry. With that being such an unhappy marriage I just thought it might be perceived to be a tainted title. Probably doesn't help that Diana's life just seemed to be one trauma after another. It was all just so bloody tragic, but they seem really happy so maybe they can turn it around and bring some positivity to the 'Wales' name.

If only Charles hadn't been so bloody weak and spineless, he could have married Camilla first time around and left the 19 year old Diana to live her life. She'd probably be living it up in a country house on the outskirts of Althorp now, not buried alone on an overgrown island in the middle of it.

Imagine, 19 year old girl marrying a 32 year old prince these days! Eyebrows would definitely be raised!

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g Sat 28-Apr-18 17:15:13

It certainly is, Serious! I've just listened to that piece of music in preparation. I can't say I'm confident I'd recognise it again, but I think I've absorbed the general principle that lift-type music is a coded signal.

Realistically, we've got ten more years at most.

Ardant Sat 28-Apr-18 17:25:51

It's weird that we'll probably never see another Queen again, at least in our lifetimes.

TheKimJongUnofFeminism Sat 28-Apr-18 17:31:50

I can't remember anyone raising the age difference between Charles and Diana at the time. Strange, isn't it?

eddiemairswife Sat 28-Apr-18 17:34:15

I remember when the King died, dirge-like music for days on the wireless.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g Sat 28-Apr-18 17:39:22

I was very aware of the age difference. Diana and I were born in the same month and oddly enough we got engaged in the same month. My husband is six years older than me and I thought that was quite a big age gap at the time, so hearing that she was going to marry a man who was 12 years older was a bit of an eyeopener.

As I recall there was quite a lot of adverse comment about the marriage, in left-leaning circles anyway. There was a song which might have been Australian which went 'And Lady Di Di Di went stick it in your eye' or similar. Also some people wearing badges saying 'Don't do it, Di!'

Having said that, most of the nation appeared to go doolally about the Royal Wedding and the births of William and Harry. The cult of Diana was very strong all through the 80s and into the 90s.

TheKimJongUnofFeminism Sat 28-Apr-18 17:47:39

Yes-I would have imagined that I would have been horrified. Maybe I was too busy being a rabid trade union official to notice.

SenecaFalls Sat 28-Apr-18 17:53:30

I do remember there being some comment about the age difference in the US coverage. And discussions about the virgin requirement making it difficult for him to find a bride closer to his age.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g Sat 28-Apr-18 17:57:43

Main benefit of the RW was an extra Bank Holiday! Although as a student on vacation at the time that was not of huge significance to me. Vanished times. I didn't have a job that summer as I had glandular fever but I was able to get Income Support (social security benefit paid to anyone, as I recall, no need to show any record of NI contributions). Mrs T put a stop to that shortly afterwards.

tribpot Sat 28-Apr-18 17:58:23

I think it was mentioned, KimJong - although there seemed to be a recognition that Charles 'had' to marry a debutante (by implication: virgin). I think the Royal Family tried to engineer a fairy tale, with awful results.

AlpacaLypse Sat 28-Apr-18 18:09:24

Thanks for the Guardian article - fascinating!

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g Sat 28-Apr-18 18:17:27

Should have known it would be on Youtube!

Not quite as I remembered, though.

SenecaFalls Sat 28-Apr-18 18:18:58

I have no memory of the King's death, but my first memory of TV was watching the Queen's coronation on a tiny black and white television. I think that is what sparked my lifetime interest in British history and, by extension, the RF.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g Sat 28-Apr-18 18:21:50

Gosh, what a memory, Seneca. I wasn't alive then. My husband (just) remembers the assassination of JFK. I remember the moon landings clearly, not sure what other news events from earlier in the 60s I truly remember.

Helpmeplan Sat 28-Apr-18 18:22:30

I was hoping Charles declines the throne when the time comes

SillySallySingsSongs Sat 28-Apr-18 18:27:09

I was hoping Charles declines the throne when the time comes

No chance what so ever.

SenecaFalls Sat 28-Apr-18 18:33:21

No, I am looking forward to see how Charles manages as king. I just hope I live to see it. smile

PandaPieForTea Sat 28-Apr-18 18:38:24

Is the whole country going to have an enforced mourning period? I can’t be the only one who would prefer most TV and radio to keep going as normal.

Helpmeplan Sat 28-Apr-18 18:40:31

I disagree silly. Obviously it's just my thoughts on it but if they go for the more modern monarchy that I think the UK wants (just my opinion obviously) then I think Wills would be a better fit. If Charles does take the throne we are highly likely to see 2 Kings within 20 years which is far greater instability than we have seen for a number of years.

chantico Sat 28-Apr-18 18:46:48

Yes, there will be formal mourning. But no we don't really know what it's going to be like.

Because traditions do evolve, but it's just been such a long time since last time that there hasn't been a chance for a gentle evolution. This will be the first earth if the television age, let alone the Internet one.

Routine business of anything which is done in the name of the Crown will pause, but perhaps not for as long as formerly. So Government business will be suspended, and likely that courts will pause too. BBC and other public funded broadcasters will modify programming and I suspect other UK terrestrial broadcasters will follow suit.

If you work in the public sector, you may be asked to wear mourning at work for a specified period.

State funeral will probably be a public holiday.

SenecaFalls Sat 28-Apr-18 18:46:50

I think Charles might be more modern than people think. It is already well known that he wants a slimmed-down monarchy. Supposedly, that is one of the reasons that the Wessex children do not use royal titles.

eddiemairswife Sat 28-Apr-18 18:48:25

My Grandma(1879-1960) lived through 6 monarchs....Victoria, EdwardVII, GeorgeV, Edward VIII, GeorgeVI and Elizabeth. I'm quite envious, having experienced only two of them.

EdithWeston Sat 28-Apr-18 18:49:19

I agree seneca - the slimmed down version will essentially be his descendants. Though Princess Anne and the Countess of Wessex will carry on with their established causes, as they seem to be the ones who are the safest pairs of hands.

SenecaFalls Sat 28-Apr-18 18:49:54

I think it very likely that flags in the US will be ordered to half-staff. That is seldom done for a foreigner, but I would guess that it will be done for the Queen.

SenecaFalls Sat 28-Apr-18 18:56:02

My Grandma(1879-1960) lived through 6 monarchs..

Come to think of it, so did mine (1888-1987). Maybe with her genes, I will make it to three.

sunnyjune Sat 28-Apr-18 21:10:01

Interesting hearing all the bits of history you have lived through, moon landings etc. I was born in 1996 so have seen very little in comparison!

I think Charles has been waiting for his moment his entire life and highly doubt he'd pass it up for anything. Plus I don't think William would want the responsibility yet!

BlackBat Sat 28-Apr-18 21:28:03

Assuming Charles takes the throne when the Queen dies, it will be up to him to bestow the Prince of Wales title upon William. Theoretically, heirs are the Prince of Wales before taking the throne but it also isn’t an immediate title that is taken so it is feasible that Charles will die before bestowing it and William could be crowned without being Prince of Wales. Therefore, George would be the next likely Prince of Wales and (assuming he does marry) his wife would be entitled to style herself accordingly. Presumably by then, few people will associate the title as strongly with Diana as some clearly still do now.

If/when William does become Prince of Wales, Catherine may choose not to be styled as Princess of Wales. Camilla currently is entitled to use the title but chooses not to.

Sevendown Sat 28-Apr-18 23:09:32

How will the unblock react to queen camilla though?

Sevendown Sat 28-Apr-18 23:09:51

Unblock??

Public!!

BlackBat Sat 28-Apr-18 23:13:26

Sevendown there will probably be some initial comments and then people will predominantly accept it. After all, no matter what she styles herself as, if Charles becomes king, she will technically be queen consort just like she now is technically the Princess of Wales.

SenecaFalls Sat 28-Apr-18 23:27:34

it is feasible that Charles will die before bestowing it and William could be crowned without being Prince of Wales

If Charles dies before succeeding, the Queen could make William Prince of Wales. There is precedent for this. Frederick Prince of Wales, the son of George II, died before becoming king. George II made Frederick's son eldest son Prince of Wales. He later reigned as George III.

Mummingainteasy Sun 29-Apr-18 07:31:58

Loved reading this, it's so interesting!! X

ILikeMyChickenFried Sun 29-Apr-18 07:41:47

Inthinknits silly to not allow Camilla the title of Queen consort. That's what her title will be once Charles is Queen.

SeriousChutzpah Sun 29-Apr-18 08:34:11

once Charles is Queen

Does he get to wear a tiara, though? grin

ILikeMyChickenFried Sun 29-Apr-18 08:35:33

Haha. I'm sure he would look beautiful.

PrincessoftheSea Sun 29-Apr-18 08:47:22

How many days off work would we get to mourn?

eddiemairswife Sun 29-Apr-18 12:31:25

Probably one day for the funeral.

EdithWeston Sun 29-Apr-18 12:46:07

National Mourning would, if following twentieth century precedent, be 12 days. But I think very few organisations wouldn't have a complete shut down for the whole period

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/what-happens-queen-dies-12-9539639

EdithWeston Sun 29-Apr-18 12:47:03

Not 'wouldn't'. would

DYAC!

MillicentF Sun 29-Apr-18 12:51:12

Apparantly no comedy on the telly for 12 days.........

TwoAndTwoEqualsChaos Sun 29-Apr-18 13:13:21

I recall reading this about Princess Augusta, a Grand-daughter of George III, Aunt to Queen Mary and Grand Duchess of Mecklenburg-Strelitz; presumably, although the records are better, we will be in a very similar situation, due to the length of HM the Queen's reign:

"In making preparations for the coronation of King Edward VII and Queen Alexandra in 1901, the Duke of Norfolk consulted her on matters of etiquette and attire. This was due to her presence at the Coronation of King William IV and Queen Adelaide seventy-one years earlier. She was nine years old at the time and kissed the Queen's hand. She was also able to provide details of the Coronation of Queen Victoria, (she was then sixteen)."

BishopBrennansArse Sun 29-Apr-18 17:08:02

@MillicentF ah well I'll just watch Netflix 😂

PrincessoftheSea Sun 29-Apr-18 20:37:41

One day only? I need time to mourn😫

squarecorners Tue 01-May-18 22:17:34

I think they will be a good p&p of Wales. A nice refreshing change.

sunnyjune Tue 01-May-18 22:57:45

I agree @squarecorners

Will be abit strange at first though as I associate 'princess of Wales' with Diana so much!

I think there is no better replacement than Catherine, though.

It's weird how I don't give a damn about Charles' title, the weak, spineless, ass😩. All the qualities one wishes for in a future head of state!

eloisesparkle Wed 02-May-18 07:46:06

When Charles becomes King, Camilla becomes Queen.
Bad behaviour gets rewarded. sad
I don't know how William and Harry can be in the same room as her.
If she didn't make herself available to Charles that marriage might have stood a chance.

Turnitupdrhill Wed 02-May-18 07:59:44

If you work in the public sector, you may be asked to wear mourning at work for a specified period.

shock

When the royal family start wearing mourning over the death of a member of my family, I'll start wearing it for them.

ILikeMyChickenFried Wed 02-May-18 08:22:00

If she didn't make herself available to Charles that marriage might have stood a chance.

hmm that marriage never stood a chance.

PortBlacksandResidentStill Wed 02-May-18 08:30:50

I thought that youtube tune was going to be the sad one discussed earlier grin

Butteredparsn1ps Wed 02-May-18 08:35:22

I’m intrigued by the suggestion upthread that no work would be done on behalf of the crown for a mourning period of some days.

Where might this leave Brexit negotiations, if the timings were to coincide I wonder?

QueenOfTheAndals Wed 02-May-18 08:48:35

I was hoping Charles declines the throne when the time comes

Hah, no chance. The man is past retirement age and still waiting to start his job. There's no way he's going to decline it!

ILikeMyChickenFried Wed 02-May-18 09:28:29

I don't think there's anyway William wants to take it up either at the moment.

sunnyjune Wed 02-May-18 19:14:26

No their marriage never stood a chance, he loved Camilla and should have just stood up for himself and married her.

Imagine marrying someone because your dad and granny tell you to fully knowing from the get go you don't love them? It's so odd!

I don't know how William and Harry can stand it, it must have been very difficult at first especially so soon after losing their mother. I suppose feelings mellow over the years and Camilla does actually seem to be an ok kinda person, if you discount all the cheating.

ChoudeBruxelles Wed 02-May-18 19:15:58

Really not that recent though and there have been plenty of princesses of wales before Diana.

didofido Fri 08-Feb-19 13:07:55

I had chicken pox during the coronation celebrations and couldn't go to any of the kids' parties or TV watchings (we didn't have a telly).

The family were all so sorry for me and bought me lots of books about kings of the past, coronation ceremonies etc etc. I particularly remember having to ask about King Stephen and the Anarchy, and what "Usurper" meant.

Almost certainly the reason I later studied mediaeval history at Uni...!

mermaidbutmytailfelloff Fri 08-Feb-19 13:24:36

zombie....

IndianaJonesAndTheTempleOfDoom Thu 02-May-19 18:08:37

It will just be odd when he is King after never knowing any other monarch than the Queen.

Ethelswith Thu 02-May-19 19:11:14

My DMum remembers singing God Save the King

You'd probably have to be 70+ to remember that

AuntieStella Thu 02-May-19 19:12:55

I don't think it matters (for once) that this one is an old thread - it's not exactly a subject that goes off! Well, not until after the event when we'll all know the definitive answer.....

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