Would you ask for money back?

[katie2812]

We currently have a dog trainer for our two dogs (pomchis). They both bark at everything and everyone and one of them bites whenever you try to put a harness on or cut his nails or handle him in certain ways. He had bitten us everyday but can be very obedient and both have very bad seperation anxiety. They both hate other dogs and bark like crazy at people in street it's so stressful to walk them. We raised them from birth as mom rejected them and decided to keep them which has played a huge role in their behaviours now but We have tried everything training videos, practiced different methods and now we have hired a dog trainer. It was £150 for consultation and £60 per session after. We made it clear at the beginning what we expect and that was to be not be bitten and to walk them stress free as eventually we want to take them the beach etc. The dog trainer believes in positive reinforcement and doesn't believe in negative responses such as shouting. We have now had four sessions plus an extra dog socialisation walk plus consultation and we have seen improvements e.g. they are calmer and the male is more obedient but we still cannot handle him or walk them at all. On the last session the dog trainer said two more and we will complete the training. AIBU to ask for at least some of our money back if by the end we aren't able to walk or handle the dogs even though we have seen slight improvements?

[honeygirlz]

Why not stop thesessions now and find someone else?

[Belowwreck]

The dog trainer isn't a magician, they can only work with what they've got.

I sympathise, I have a mad chihuahua who barks insanely at anything she passes on a walk but the problem is def her so I wouldnt expect a trainer to magically fix her.

[AragornsManlyStubble]

Oh my god! How unreasonable can you get!?

[zenasfuck]

Who bred the dogs ?

What is the temperament of mum and dad ?
Are they neutered ?
At what age did you start their socialisation with the world ?

[Chocoholic12]

YABU. Its like counselling you don't get a refund if you are not transformed. They are not magic.

[katie2812]

Honeygirlz - the dog trainer is really nice and she is trying and I am worried that I'm expecting too much but after 6 weeks of sessions and seeing no significant improvement today I've started looking for others but I feel invested in this dog trainer as I want to complete the 6-8 sessions she recommended

Belowwreck - it's awful isn't it! I know she isn't a magician but I made clear at beginning 6 weeks ago barking is an issue and we haven't seen any improvement

Aragonsmanlystubble - can you explain further? I would actually like to know if I'm being unreasonable and why

[Icanflyhigh]

What is a pomchis? I'm assuming a posh name for a heinz 57 momgrel?

[katie2812]

Zenasfuck - Who bred the dogs ? We did by mistake (genuine we were waiting for an appointment and she went in season a d they said they couldn't do her until 3 months after - What is the temperament of mum and dad ? Mum perfect temperament the dad not so much. We got a trainer for him and he improved significantly after one session that was all that was needed but now because we used negative reinforcement they get scared easily and I didn't want that Are they neutered ? Yes At what age did you start their socialisation with the world ? - around 4 months but not well enough that's the biggest mistake

[katie2812]

Chocoholic12- that's true I never thought of it like that

Icanflyhigh - Pomeranian chihuahua cross

[FudgeBrownie2019]

If you have a dog who has bitten you every day of it's life you can't expect anyone to magically undo that behaviour in 6 weeks. It would be a miracle worker you need.

In all seriousness, it will take months and months to undo their dreadful behaviour, YABU to expect a refund when you've asked her to help you and you've not even completed the course yet - if you're doubtful of her methods it's likely you're not enforcing them constantly and in order to change your dogs behaviour you need to be on the ball.

We have a spaniel who was a rescue at 12 months old. She is an absolute delight and I adore her - she bit me several times when she first came to us and we had to decide if we were going to train her or have her PTS. t took such a long time to modify her behaviour to the point where I trusted her - 10 years on and she is impeccable, but I can't stress how much time and energy went into undoing those ingrained responses she had when she came to us.

[Belowwreck]

Is the dad a chihuahua by any chance?

I used to go to a chihuahua socialisation class pre covid - honestly the most barky little cute fuckers I've ever met.

I now pick mine up when she sees another dog as I cant cope with her picking a fight with another bloody Great Dane.

Sympathy for you but it sounds like they're not going to change

[PlanDeRaccordement]

YABU
It takes more than 6 hrs over 6 weeks to undo months of poor training by you. Negative reinforcement- that’s a fancy name for abuse in many cases.
Switching trainers would just confuse the dogs more and make them even less trainable. So stick with the program and be realistic. It will take months, maybe a year or two to fully undo the mess your dogs are in.

[SunshineOverThere]

You are totally expecting too much after 6 sessions. We are 5 months into having trainings sessions for our dog who has severe (currently medicated) separation anxiety and is reactive to other dogs. The first thing your trainer should have explained is that you need to stop stressing the dogs out by taking them on walks!

I'm speaking as someone with a very complicated dog, we went though 2 trainers before finding someone we liked. But also 'negative reinforcement' ie punishment don't work for dogs with anxiety and fear issues. Your you'd are literally afraid of the world, stop putting them in frightening situations for a bit and see that lowers their stress levels and yours!

[SunshineOverThere]

Happy to chat more as many dog owners don't understand the stress of not being able to walk your dog and getting bitten etc.

[katie2812]

FUDGEBROWNIE19 - thank you that's really helpful. We are trying the techniques and have seen some improvement and I guess that's what I should stay with as well as the trainer. Today we had such a bad day he bit me three times and both wouldn't be quiet and it's just made me doubtful but I can't expect miracles

Belowwreck - they do a dog socialisation class which was helpful and I'm thinking on sticking with that, my dogs have picked fights with so many other dogs it isn't real! It's embarrassing 😣

Planderecordament - negative reinforcement I used that as I wasn't sure but basically when timmy the dad would bark up the gate and guard we had to throw this thing on the floor with chains like a set of keys and it worked and snapped him out of it and it worked but now they hate loud noises. I didn't rebook her for that reason although I'm glad he isn't biting anymore

[katie2812]

Sunshine over there - thank you. She did say not to worry about walks but now she said to walk him as we need to work on it. How are you finding the sessions now? It's just a waiting game I'm not going to walk them anymore as it is so stressful and isn't fair on them today we couldn't even get to the quiet field we normally go to because they were so bad but yesterday they were amazing. I'm just deflated ATM

[SunshineOverThere]

@katie2812

FUDGEBROWNIE19 - thank you that's really helpful. We are trying the techniques and have seen some improvement and I guess that's what I should stay with as well as the trainer. Today we had such a bad day he bit me three times and both wouldn't be quiet and it's just made me doubtful but I can't expect miracles

Belowwreck - they do a dog socialisation class which was helpful and I'm thinking on sticking with that, my dogs have picked fights with so many other dogs it isn't real! It's embarrassing 😣

Planderecordament - negative reinforcement I used that as I wasn't sure but basically when timmy the dad would bark up the gate and guard we had to throw this thing on the floor with chains like a set of keys and it worked and snapped him out of it and it worked but now they hate loud noises. I didn't rebook her for that reason although I'm glad he isn't biting anymore

Don't take dogs who already don't like other dogs to a socialisation class, because it will freak them out, you'll get annoyed and everyone loses! Also dogs really can only be "socialised" in the behavioural sense until 14/15 weeks. After that it's damage control all the way. Again I'm not against you, I adopted a puppy at 12 weeks and really it was already too late, he's terrified of other dogs, people etc.

[SunshineOverThere]

@katie2812

Sunshine over there - thank you. She did say not to worry about walks but now she said to walk him as we need to work on it. How are you finding the sessions now? It's just a waiting game I'm not going to walk them anymore as it is so stressful and isn't fair on them today we couldn't even get to the quiet field we normally go to because they were so bad but yesterday they were amazing. I'm just deflated ATM

I get it. Totally get it. My dog was asked to leave day care, he only weighs 10lbs but is not safe around other dogs.

I really recommend a dog Facebook group called Reactive Dogs UK. There is something there called a CARE protocol which explains that you need to change the emotional reaction of your dog to things they are afraid of. Like the harness, sit with a bag of 20 little treats and have the harness on the floor. Every time your dog goes near and sniffs the harness "Mark" that behaviour (we use a loud YES) and give them a treat. Do this a few times a day. Then a in a few days move to you holding the harness and when they come to sniff it, mark that and treat. Eventually your dogs won't associate the harness with going outside, which they are probably frightened of but with treats. You can then put the harness on without getting bitten, but it takes a while, a few weeks or months depending on their emotions etc.

Like I said, I have a very messed up dog, don't like labelling him that way but it's true. And one who has been difficult to train.

[SunshineOverThere]

@katie2812 I would ask MNs HQ to move your thread to the Dog House bit of mumsnet. A lot of people don't understand dog training and you might get discouraged with some less than nice messages in AIBU

[Shizzlestix]

We went through 4 trainers, including one from the TV! Only the last one did any good and she basically trained us more than the dog. In between sessions, we had to be utterly consistent. It’s pointless relying on the trainer to transform ill-socialised poorly behaved dogs when she sees them once a week. You have to follow her instructions to the letter at all times if you want to see a change, that’s if you think she’s making sense. Is she training them separately? I’ve yet to meet a sane Pom.

I know it’s pointless telling you now, but there is an injection for dogs if you know they’ve tied but don’t want a pregnancy.

[BlueBirdGreenFence]

Bad behaviour like that will take months and months of consitent teaching and reinforcement. It's key to understand that the dog trainer is really just there to show you how to guide the dogs' behaviour and them turning up once a week with you not putting in the hours outside of that is pointless. My dog sounds similar bar the biting - a spoiled wee skitter who barks like mad, can't be left alone and behaves how he likes.
I gave up and just avoid his triggers and we're all much happier these days.

[princessTiasmum]

Have you seen "dogs behaving badly" on channel 5 i think it was tonight, someone had the same problem, can't remember the name of the behaviourist but he was good,think it's on every week
You could google the programme
This dog bit everywhere ,arms,hands,feet

[Aoifenjijmel]

A trainer will not fix this, you need a proper behaviourist. If you go on the APBC website you will find a list of accredited people. Make sure you get someone who is APBC accredited, as sadly some people will call themselves behaviourists when they are not adequately qualified. Trainers are ok for teaching your dog basic obedience, but if you have severe behaviour problems (which this is), then you need someone with much more expertise. It won’t be a quick fix, and it won’t be cheap (I’m a vet, and the behaviourist that we work with charges about £230 for first consultation, but it is 1.5-2hours in your house observing the dogs and an in depth discussion of everything, with detailed plan put in place and follow up support). It’s unfair to expect a trainer to sort this within a few weeks - it’s a major psychological problem.

[swimlyn]

Over the years I’ve known quite a few dog owners who cannot cope with, and cannot seem to train their dog(s).

This process has helped a few of them:
www.doghealth.com/training/commands/2349-how-to-teach-your-dog-the-quiet-command

A few have tried and failed, and a few simply didn’t put the time in to get any result.

hth

[Watermelontea]

It’s unfair to expect the trainer to fix the issue in a short space of time, but it’s also wrong of the trainer to give false hope that things will be fixed in another two sessions.
I hope you have some success OP.