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Genetics - inpossible surely?

(28 Posts)
frostedviolets Fri 03-Jul-20 22:42:03

For a black pug mum bred to a fawn sable pug dad to produce all grey Merle puppies bar one chocolate?!

Is it?

Just browsing pets4homes and come across this ad:

www.pets4homes.co.uk/classifieds/2718673-beautiful-pug-puppies-x-kettering.html

But Merle can only be produced with one Merle parent I thought?

OP’s posts: |
Pipandmum Fri 03-Jul-20 22:49:57

I guess if Merle is a recessive colour to black and sable it's possible if both parents have it but that's a very simplistic thing I don't know about dog genes.
Are the parents KC registered? That's a lot to pay if they aren't. And the Kennel Club will not register Merle pugs due to associated health defects so be warned.

frostedviolets Fri 03-Jul-20 23:04:21

Oh I’m not interested in buying one.
I was just perusing what is about and they caught my eye firstly because pugs don’t come in Merle!

Then I looked at the parents and I thought hang on a minute, don’t one of the parents have to be Merle to produce Merle pups?!

Googling, pugs don’t come in ‘fawn sable’ (I thought that was what it was called due to the black hairs on the back), the dad is apparently just ‘fawn’ and the mum is black.

But black is dominant, so the pups should all be black?
Not Merle and not chocolate (one of the pups is chocolate)

Which makes me think the parents aren’t really the parents at all.

OP’s posts: |
princessTiasmum Fri 03-Jul-20 23:06:04

Sorry,don't know much about dog genetics, but that is an awful lot of money for a non registered dog
I have seen prices rise asronomically in the past few weeks,of all breeds
I am looking for a dog, not especially a puppy, but looking at prices there is no way i could afford one now
Last year, shitzus and that type of dog you could get for minimum £350, now £1,500, but hopefully will come down after lockdown
I am hoping i can find one then
Even rescues have no small dogs, and here no new ones in the last 12 weeks,of any breed
Sorry, i have hi jacked your thread,hope you find what you want

PlanDeRaccordement Fri 03-Jul-20 23:10:58

No it’s possible. Black is a mutation of Grey for hair colour in young mammals. So it’s quite possible for the mutation to not pass down from black pug mum to offspring and have them be grey.

Grey hair is actually microscopically alternating growth of black and white on a single hair. The mutation turns off the switch from black to white to black etc in hair growth to produce pure black. But since sable pug had no such gene, the mutation did not pass down or was recessive and the result is the pure grey gene reappeared.

frostedviolets Fri 03-Jul-20 23:12:02

I agree about the prices, I’m not looking to buy.
I was just looking at what is about and they caught my eye because pugs don’t come in Merle and looking at the ad closer I can’t see how the parents could possibly be the parents.

Debating whether to report the ad but I suspect it would be a pointless exercise

OP’s posts: |
frostedviolets Fri 03-Jul-20 23:17:33

But Merle gene is a dominant gene quite separate isn’t it?

It’s similar to white masking gene in that it removes patches of colour so black dogs become that striking patchy mix of grey and black.

And being dominant and only needing one copy to be expressed any dog inheriting one Merle gene will surely demonstrate Merle pattern in the coat?

So neither the black mum or fawn dad can carry Merle because they aren’t Merle patterned dogs.

Right..?

And if neither parent carries Merle it can’t possibly be expressed in nearly all of the puppies?!

Or can it?
confused

OP’s posts: |
Shambolical1 Fri 03-Jul-20 23:22:53

'Dad' is a weird shape, for a pug! Also, with a 'head' breed, why would you not show a photo showing the dog's head/face?

I reckon there's bulldog or french bulldog in there (both breeds are also refused KC registration if they're merle).

A quick search for merle pugs also showed me 'pure Teddy pugs' in merle. 'Fluffy'. No such thing as a fluffy pug! I expect Pomeranian cross or similar.

Madness.

frostedviolets Fri 03-Jul-20 23:29:54

'Dad' is a weird shape, for a pug! Also, with a 'head' breed, why would you not show a photo showing the dog's head/face?
Yes, not very cobby is he?

Looking closer he also appears to have white feet..?
Google tells me pugs only come in black or fawn (and apricot and silver as forms of fawn) but his coat really strikes me as sable.

Is he possibly not a fawn at all but perhaps a cryptic sable Merle or cryptic fawn Merle I wonder... 🤔

OP’s posts: |
GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman Sat 04-Jul-20 10:04:32

If the dam is black, my understanding is that the sire would have to be either an obvious merle or a cryptic merle to produce merle puppies. I can't see it in the stud, bit I'm not an expert. Even if he is a cryptic merle, the odds of 5 merles to two chocolates (per the ad) are on the less likely side.

Per the breed standard pugs should be 'silver, apricot, fawn or black' so there is probably something else in there. And the price is totally batshit, but that's another matter.

Extraordinarymagic Sat 04-Jul-20 11:28:41

For human genetics if , for example, both parents have black hair but both parents have a recessive red haired gene then a child could be born with red hair and actually has a good chance this would be the case. So if the same applies in dogs then recessive Merle in both parents would mean Merle puppies. However I don’t know if Merle or fawn is recessive (ie if fawn is recessive then the fawn father would have x2 fawn genes to be that colour thus no recessive Merle. )

Smallsteps88 Sat 04-Jul-20 11:42:38

No idea about the genetics but those are really terrible photos of really ugly dogs. Not a single photo of mum with the babies. Barely any clear photos of the pups. None of them at home, in their bed, living room etc. They’ve plonked them in a field because they’ve bred them in a shed and can’t show those photos. As says they’re 12 weeks old. Why no current photos? Might as well buy a bag of air for all you’d be getting in this purchase.

frostedviolets Sat 04-Jul-20 11:49:08

So if the same applies in dogs then recessive Merle in both parents would mean Merle puppies. However I don’t know if Merle or fawn is recessive
It’s not, it’s dominant.
I’m by no means a genetics expert, hence asking for more opinions, but I have a border collie and Merle is a very popular colour in that breed so I have read up on the pattern before.

OP’s posts: |
frostedviolets Sat 04-Jul-20 11:51:31

Not a single photo of mum with the babies. Barely any clear photos of the pups. None of them at home, in their bed, living room etc. They’ve plonked them in a field because they’ve bred them in a shed and can’t show those photos. As says they’re 12 weeks old. Why no current photos?
I completely agree.
I don’t believe the ‘parents’ genuinely are the parents.
I think they’ve either bred the pups as you describe from different parents or they’ve bought them in from elsewhere.

OP’s posts: |
Smallsteps88 Sat 04-Jul-20 11:54:32

Yes I’d highly doubt these are the parents.

BlessedBeTheFruitCake Sat 04-Jul-20 12:03:35

That's a shocking price for a dog that isn't even kennel club registered. A lot of Merle pugs have health issues apparently so goodness knows what people with more money than sense are letting themselves in for. It's highly likely the advertiser is just a front for a puppy farm.

frostedviolets Sat 04-Jul-20 12:09:38

The price is insane but honestly, I couldn’t see a single puppy in my rough area for less than £1,500!
Most were priced £2,000 - £3,000.

I really hope that in time these crazy prices die down.

I bought my lovely collie years ago for £150, at the time the farm ones were going for in the region of £250 - £500.
I did a search the other day and again, virtually none under £1,000 now.

OP’s posts: |
PharmaLlama Sat 04-Jul-20 15:06:02

I don’t know much about dog colour genetics. However, my son has brown eyes but both his father and I have blue eyes, with brown being dominant this should be impossible. It must be possible though as his eyes are a very rich brown. Research into it suggested that a mutation switched off the brown gene in one of us (we both have mums with brown eyes) but we were still able to pass the gene on to our offspring. So it’s probably not impossible just highly unlikely.

Shambolical1 Sat 04-Jul-20 20:00:54

I'm also wondering why the breeder's licence has been issued by the London Borough of Barnet when the puppies are apparently in Kettering. A quick look round seems to show that ALL breeder's licences start with '19/00308' but then have a suffix, but I'm making an assumption which may not be correct.

There is something very, very fishy going on here... This litter seems to have moved to Desborough and are suddenly only three weeks old again...

www.gumtree.com/p/dogs/chocolate-merle-pug-puppies-/1375116118

Smallsteps88 Sat 04-Jul-20 20:07:11

Dodgy as hell

frostedviolets Sat 04-Jul-20 20:08:06

Ooh!
I never noticed that!
Some people are just disgusting aren’t they?!

OP’s posts: |
Ylvamoon Sat 04-Jul-20 20:18:12

That is one strange advert! The puppies age is stated as 12 weeks?? The puppies in the pictures look to be around 3-4 weeks. (Eras, eyes & paws!) & you would not have a puppy that young sitting in the grass!

Picture of 4 Weeks old puppy... they all look similar at this age.

yeOldeTrout Sat 04-Jul-20 20:25:50

Desborough is only just outside of Kettering, I don't think that's so different.
I'm not understanding the Barnet link, though.
I didn't like the tiny puppies in grass, too.
As for £3000. Will someone actually pay that?

Ylvamoon Sat 04-Jul-20 20:25:58

I have reported the advent to Pets4homes... let's see what they do.

Ylvamoon Sat 04-Jul-20 20:31:07

Pets4homes has taken the advert down... they were actually very quick.

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