Breeders can't let puppies go to new home?

[hipslikecinderella]

I've had an email from a breed club committee member suggesting that breeders can't let puppies go to a new home at this time.

Also had a look on Kennel Club site, which is saying that collecting a puppy is not 'essential travel' so that ties in with this.

Does anyone know the actual situation?

So tricky all around, I wouldn't want to get anyone into trouble, or myself. But equally, people's businesses will surely suffer?

[elQuintoConyo]

Well... These are weird times we live in, so yes you cannot get a puppy. Travelling, risk of transfer, vets not offering vaccinations only emergency treatment etc.

It is what it is.

[Whitney168]

people's businesses will surely suffer

No sympathy for anyone who operates dog breeding as a 'business', to be honest, although obviously do have sympathy for the puppies.

[BlueGheko]

Yes that is correct. What businesses are you referring to though?

[Veterinari]

Basically what the KV day. It not essential to get a puppy therefore collecting a puppy is not essential travel. Similarly vets are no longer vaccinating but are emergency only so pups are safer with their breeder

[Veterinari]

*KC

[Whitney168]

Am actually hoping that one silver lining of this is that a lot of people who think puppy breeding is a golden ticket will be put out of 'business'. Unfortunately, whether they give up or come back afterwards, there will be an awful lot of collateral damage in the form of dead puppies.

Anyone who bought a puppy from a commercial breeder and thought it didn't matter as you 'just wanted a pet', this is what you were supporting.

[Wolfiefan]

You shouldn’t be collecting a puppy. Vets won’t vaccinate etc.

[hipslikecinderella]

Yes I worry most about the 'unwanted' puppies of course and any suffering for them or the mums.

It will cost the businesses a lot of money to keep and feed them etc and they might not bother. If they dispose of puppies correctly, is it seen as 'commerical waste'?

Out of interest though, can it ever be ethical to make money through breeding dogs? Hasn't it been going on for centuries, eg with hunting dogs etc?

[WorriedPupOwner]

Sorry to derail (slightly)... I'm assuming that if you already have a newly acquired puppy (from just before the KC guidance came in) it's more ethical to keep it (and just keep it in), even unvaccinated, than return it? Because the return would also be non-essential, and it's no safer from infection at its home of origin than with us...?

[jinxpixie]

worriedPupOwner if you already have the puppy keep it of course.

Loads of things you can do with the puppy at home and during lockdown to help socialise it without going out.

[Shitsgettingcrazy]

I work with a small rescue and are able to travel if a puppy or dog is at risk.

I had an emergency foster dog over the weekend.

If a breeder refuses to keep them, they are at risk, I suppose.

One if my dogs is a puppy that we refused in those circumstances in December. Breeder (definite back yard shitty breeder) contacted the rescue and said if the last 3 werent picked up in 3 days they were dumping them.

So I went and got them. Kept them until they were 10 weeks and adopted one.

I suppose it depends on what the breeder says.

[hipslikecinderella]

From a breeders Facebook forum :
Hi all, Due to the current situation with restricted movement/travel in the UK, our breeders are watching closely Government, DEFRA and the KC's guidelines which are being updated regularly. Some say not to travel to pick up puppies but there is no clear government ruling against it, as far as we are aware. Picking up your puppy could be classed as essential travel as a breeder can only hold onto them for so long before it becomes untenable.

There are certain safety measures that can be put into place at the moment for collecting puppies without any physical contact, and therefore following the social distancing rules. These would include measures such as the breeder placing puppy safely in a sanitised crate at the door as you wait in your car, only come out to pick up once door is closed. paperwork/puppy pack will be in a sealed envelope or bag. All contracts, advice, information, etc; that is not in the envelope can be emailed prior to pickup and payments to be made via online bank transfer of PayPal friends and family 24 hours before pickup. Money MUST be cleared before collection. Microchipping and vaccinations may have to be done buy the new owners with their own vet, as it is more difficult for breeders to take whole litters to get these done. Some breeders microchip their own litters so they will discuss this with you.

Regarding puppy viewings/visits, these will all now have to be done online by way of videos, pictures, face time etc. No physical viewings can take place, whatsoever. Breeders are working tirelessly to make sure that everything is in place for safe and secure transitions in this stressful time. Please don't ask any of our breeders to break any of these measures, as it is unethical and unfair to do so.

You should, where possible, travel alone, or with one other family member that lives in your household. No children should be travelling with you. Please make sure your vehicle is fully roadworthy, reliable, full with fuel and you know exactly where you are going, without the need to stop en route if possible. the rules are in place, not just to stop the spread of the virus but also to prevent strain on any services and these include breakdown services too.

I know it sounds daunting but please do not be put off by any of these measures as you can be assured that every one of our breeders are all vetted by our admin. all of our breeders are home breeders with health testing in place and give their pups the best possible start in life.

NB. These measures are for litters that are already due or already born. I think going forward, breeders that don't already have litters or girls in pup will be pausing their breeding schedule because of the many restrictions in place and it really is not safe to do so. Until further guidelines are in place that state otherwise, we will be sticking to the above.

Please bear with us and keep chatting on the group, keep swapping information and posting lovely pictures of your pooches and your daily lives and ask away. We can still take names for future lists so please ask. Lets hope this is over for us all very soon

Our team wish you all well, stay safe and keep smiling

[Wolfiefan]

Essential travel only.
Picking up a puppy isn’t.
And taking home a new pup when no vet can vaccinate etc?
Only the shittiest of breeders would suggest this.

[hatsandshoes]

Wow.

Yes I hope these "businesses " DO suffer. Shocking, suggesting you take your puppy without vaccines etc.

[hipslikecinderella]

And a puppy left in a box to be collected by a stranger sounds awful

[Wolfiefan]

That’s awful. We got a puppy at the end of last year. She was carried to the car by our breeder who snuggled into her ear like she might change her mind and not let pup come home with us.
She did thankfully!!

[GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman]

Out of interest though, can it ever be ethical to make money through breeding dogs? Hasn't it been going on for centuries, eg with hunting dogs etc?
I don't think it's unethical to make some money from breeding dogs, though I don't suppose a good breeder will make a great deal from a litter, especially not once you have factored in things like the extra laundry and their time. If you are going to prove a working dog before you breed her, you can spend a small fortune going to tests and trials.

I don't think though that you can ethically make a living (as opposed to having an occasional income) from breeding dogs, because to do that you will need to have a lot of breeding bitches, more than you can look after properly. Plus if you are doing it for the money, you are much likelier to breed a bitch who should not be bred, not bother to spend money on health tests, use any old dog for the stud and not put enough time into the puppies.

[VetOnCall]

My oldest bitch is a Field Trial Champion, which is the highest award that a working gundog can achieve. She had two litters - 13 pups in total - which were massively in demand due to being Champion - Champion matings. The pups sold for about 50% more than a 'normal' pup of the breed due to their breeding and potential. I've never added it all up because it doesn't matter to me but if I did I'd say I probably came out of all of that running at a loss of at least several thousand pounds. The cost of her training - hiring suitable land, paying a professional 'gun' to shoot over her whilst I handled her, paying for each bird or rabbit, fuel costs, and then the cost of competing her - society memberships, entry fees, fuel and accommodation costs as competitions are scattered all over the country, and then the health testing costs (hip scoring, annual clinical eye tests and DNA tests), the stud fees and costs of rearing the puppies. As I said, it didn't matter to me as I'm absolutely not in it for the money, if I was she would have had 3 or 4 litters rather than just 2, but done properly and on a small scale, dog breeding is not a profitable enterprise.

That Facebook group quoted above sounds awful. It reads like a front for puppy farming/commercial breeding. PayPal payments, no vetting of new owners in person, no meeting the puppies and their mother, puppies being left in crates at the door - none of this is good.

[Wolfiefan]

Vet I agree and thank goodness for those like you. Breeding for purpose and not for cash.

[fivedogstofeed]

Of course loads of shitty breeders will use the situation to blackmail people into buying puppies.
Hopefully this will expose them for what they are.

Many puppies will certainly be dumped. Already there was a huge litter of springer pups found near where I live this week.

The few and far between decent breeders will of course hold on to their pups and do the best they can.

[Booboostwo]

I think all options are equally problematic.

A new puppy means traveling to pick the puppy up, contact with another household, finding a vet willing to vaccinate and, most problematic of all, keeping the puppy in isolation and without the proper socialization that will affect it for life.

Equally, leaving the puppy with the breeders is also a huge problem. The breeder will have a larger than foreseen number of dogs, it is common for bitches to reject and attack older puppies so they will have to be separated, the puppies will develop litter mate syndrome and all the problems associated with that and none of the puppies will be properly socialized.

It's a nightmare all around. I suspect a lot of dodgy dealers will just kill puppies outright if they cannot sell them and decent breeders will suffer through with dogs that will have problems for life.

[WorriedPupOwner]

I agree all options are concerning.

We have a puppy from a good, experienced KC breeder (clearly not in it for money, due to various factors I won't go into), who really adores them (and their mum) and has clearly brought them up beautifully. This does mean we have an unvaccinated puppy, which is scary. The breeder thought it was the least bad option to get puppies to their owners ASAP after 7 weeks, to be vaccinated as soon as they can be, in their new homes. She only did this for homes and prospective owners she had thoroughly checked, and met many times (we'd visited repeatedly). It was a huge litter, and would have been very problematic to keep them all together, I think. I know it's not ideal (and I'm quite anxious about it), but I really did feel for the breeder.

[Wolfiefan]

Just a thought @WorriedPupOwner is your dog chipped (by law they have to be by a certain point.) And are you covered by insurance if pup not vaccinated? Worth checking?
Any mobile vets near you?

[WorriedPupOwner]

@Wolfiefan - no, he's not chipped either - this was due to be done by a mobile vet, along with vaccination, but the vet had to cancel due to new guidelines. It's all a bit rubbish, isn't it? I feel really irresponsible, but can't work out what to do about it. The idea of leaving the puppy indefinitely with his litter felt irresponsible, too, so I agreed to pick him up (before full lockdown).

[WorriedPupOwner]

Therefore no, we're not insured yet.