Opinions on visiting a litter ...

[Cinders29]

Hi,
We’ve been to view a litter of labs ( spent months researching and turned down a huge amount and had our hearts set on this litter due to excellent breeding history etc ) extremely happy with breeder, dogs and puppies are beautiful and well looked after, quizzed us a lot which I appreciated, the only thing thing we’re unsure on is how excitable the dam and sire were ( and the rest of the dogs there ) They’re beautiful and very friendly but very very jumpy. I know labs are and we’ve had them in the past and we will be training etc as we have young children so will want to limit that as much as possible. We were there over an hour and the whole time they climbing all over us etc. Is this a red flag ? Or normal behaviour ? Or is it just that the training hasn’t been done ? Does it mean our potential pup will be the same, or is it dependant on the work we’ve put in?

I just want to be 100% certain that this is the right litter for us. Like I said, everything else I couldn’t fault - they’re champion show dogs so I assume
They’ve had a lot of training - or is this just labs for you? ( I’ve had other labs and they were not as jumpy as this )

Sorry loads of questions - opinions would be great thank you

[florence11]

I've never met a dam and a sire together, do they own both? It's quite unusual to own two dogs that compliment each other well enough to breed them.

It could be that the training hasn't been done, but if they've been in the ring and done well they must have some training. I have working golden retrievers, one is a bit loopy with visitors despite training, the other is excited but overall much calmer. She has more of a working pedigree than my other top.

Not much help, sorry! What are you opting for? Bitches are easier IME.

[Cinders29]

Thank you. Yes, she owns both! She’s been breeding 40 years and usually doesn’t use both her own dogs I think it’s first time she’s done it. She’s keep a bitch and a dog so I assume she obviously feels as though they are well suited.

We’re having a bitch.. and actually the dam was a lot calmer - he was beautiful but so big and strong and so it solidified our decision lol

[Booboostwo]

What is the genetic coefficient between parents?

If you feel the parents are too lively for you then chances are he puppy will be too lovely for you. You can train a puppy not to jump up (it does take a bit of time) but if the issue is that the dog is very energetic you will need to find another outlet for that energy. If you have young children you may find it difficult to exercise a very energetic example of a lively breed.

[Cinders29]

I’ve just checked 21.3 % all other health tests are good.

We’re pretty active, exercise isn’t a problem. Just took me back a bit if I’m completely honest with them being so successful in the show ring.

[BorderlineExperimental]

That inbreeding coefficient is very high, to give context a mating between full siblings would produce puppies with a COI of 25%. The current average COI in the breed is 6.9%.

I’d highly recommend reading this FAQ about COIs and also this article which explains why good health test results don’t negate the need to consider inbreeding levels.

[Propertywoes]

show dogs are trained to perform in the ring. Outside the ring most of them are normal dogs. Show dogs need to have a good personality.

[Nesssie]

If they are champion show dogs then they should have a relatively high level of training to be calm enough to show. I wouldn't worry too much about their behaviour - its 'nature v nurture' so just ensure you train your puppy to the standard you want (but obviously puppies do jump up a fair bit to start with)

My dog gets a bit overexcited with new visitors, but he is usually a very calm dog.

[Cinders29]

Would you walk away from that score 🙈 I will look at link though - thank you. I’m panicking a bit now.

[BorderlineExperimental]

That score would absolutely be a deal breaker for me, especially in such a populous breed that has a relatively low average COI.

[Booboostwo]

These are labs not a very rare breed with very few specimens so I don’t understand the rationale behind such a high inbreeding score. I would be tempted to assume that the breeder got carried away with her own bred dogs and forgot a bit about the good of the breed.

[OverFedStanley]

I would walk away from that score - no I would run away.

[JaneEyre07]

I'd say with bouncy parents you're going to get a bouncy pup that needs a lot of training.

I'd ask a vet about those scores too.

[Ylvamoon]

Please be aware that the COI is accumlative... and you need to actually check the pedigree of parents to see how far back and where the inbreeding happened. (Are they on champdogs? They require a pedigree that you can check.)
If it is an accumulated COI, than I'd say as pets the dogs are fine as long as all health tests are done and results are above breed average.
Sometimes, breeders will breed a high COI litter to establish/ continue their own bloodlines. It's to preserve traits that they have carefully selected over the years ...
Dog breeding is an art and a science, not just numbers on a piece of paper.

[Cinders29]

The sire is - not the dam. I can find both health scores on KC site and both are fine. Although the dams mother did have higher than average hip scores ( only slightly though ) they have a lot of rocheby lines in their pedigree though ( I looked at it earlier on paper ) and so I guess there is bound to be some sort of cross over somewhere.

I have asked the breeder and they have come back to say something about the KC being a business and also that they do not like them kind breeding but as she shows it’s important they know how the dogs will look etc hence why they do it. She also said both dam and sire have had extensive health tests DNA etc performed and all clear and within breed standard. Really don’t know what to do for the best tbh.

[Cinders29]

Sorry - line breeding *

[Ylvamoon]

Hi OP,
what the breeder said about looks and inbreeding is true (and the reason for all the genetic abnormalities ...).
I think you really need the dams pedigree to compare and make an informed decision.
I generally think, that the pups will be fine as pets only. As for him scoring, ask if any puppies associated with the dam have ever had any problems (she might not know, simply because many people will not come forward it there is a problem.)

[Ylvamoon]

Hip not him!

[Cinders29]

I did ask re hips and she said she has never had any problems ( that she knows of - ie haven’t come forward if there has ) I will ask for pedigree of dam. Thank you.

She did mention the dam to two other dogs she’s has died at 6 due to what she ‘thinks ‘ was a brain tumour. Could be worrying, could be one of those things.

Appreciate your help - the whole COI really confuses me

[BorderlineExperimental]

It doesn't matter whether a high COI was achieved by a single recent close mating or over many generations of breeding distant relatives together, the potential effect on the individual dog (and the overall effect on the breed as a whole) is still the same.

Really don’t know what to do for the best tbh.

I would absolutely walk away. There will be other litters with all appropriate health testing in place and with acceptable COIs.

[justasking111]

Are these working labs or show labs?

[Booboostwo]

Having a dog with a serious health issue is heart breaking. Dealing with the physical problems is awful and, understandably, dogs that are in pain also have behavioural issues which can make them very difficult to manage. That is on top of the cost of vet bills and the possible shortened lifespan. No one can guarantee a healthy dog but taking reasonable precautions to avoid a problem is sensible. You have two concerns with this litter, bounciness and interbreeding, walk away.

[florence11]

Gosh that is high. I just looked up mine. GR breed average is 8.8%. My youngest is 8.7% and my eldest 3.3%.

From this thread there are a few too many factors I am iffy about that would stop me wanting to go ahead. I waited a long time for my youngest, as soon as I saw the mating advertised I put my name on the list and we drove 6 hours to get her when the time came. There are plenty of mediocre golden retriever litters on champdogs and I imagine labs are the same. I just had a quick look and wasn't impressed with the litters I saw. What specifically made you choose this litter?

For my girl, the sire was a true dual purpose (show and working) champion with a cracking pedigree, and the dam herself wasn't quite as good, but had fantastic working lines from a kennel that no longer exists. By far this was the litter that ticked more boxes than any other I had seen.

[Cinders29]

They are show labs.

We have been on many many waiting lists and have found problems leading up to visiting the pups, either health scores or some being very close to puppy farms which has led us to not continue. We finally felt happy with this breeder as had heard lots of good things about them, health scores are all good and have some great results in the show ring including best of breed at Crufts. We also wanted show as although we are quite active we felt a working dog could possibly be too much ( although I am at home all day and actually now we’re slightly being swayed towards working as we really need more than just looks , we have a special needs child and so training will be just as important as temperament ) the breeder has also been very upfront and contactable and it all felt right ... until today 😔

Timing is also a big thing as I’d ideally like to bring a pup home in summer, before the holidays so I have time with the pup without the kids at home all day.

I have called a couple more breeders I have seen on champ dogs this evening - working stock and going to visit over the next couple of days to get a feel for other breeders and see what my head is telling me once I’ve seen them.

[justasking111]

Working labs have less problems because breeders are not trying to achieve a certain look in the ring. We have had two our first passed away at 18, our second at 15. They were healthy until the end a bit arthritic but nothing cod liver oil and rimadyl couldn`t ease. They were both fantastic working dogs but more importantly for us great with children. Not a mean bone in their body. They tend to be smaller and lighter than show dogs which imo. is not a bad thing. There are gundog groups on FB where I see litters for sale. I would go for a black lab. as well the yellow ones can be a bit skittish and unpredictable. Ditto the fox red ones.

[Wolfiefan]

I wouldn’t start with champ dogs. I would start with the breed club or society.
The breeding co efficient would definitely put me off.
The breeder also sounds quite vague about the health tests done.