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DDog tried to bite. Rehome or PTS?

(170 Posts)
TetleysSurpassesYorkshireTea Fri 07-Dec-18 11:21:06

Hi, I have a 10 month old Maltese-Westie cross.

Today, after his bath, I tried to remove some dirt from his face and he tried to bite me. He is normally very placid after a bath, and I had him wrapped in a towel having a cuddle. He had let me wash his face in the bath, but as soon as he saw my hand approach his eye, he tried to bite. He has tried to do the same thing before in similar circumstances, when being groomed.

DDog does have a history of nipping ankles and hands, and we have redirected to toys or said a firm "no". We have also gently pushed him away or distracted by getting him to sit and calm down.

I do feel DDog's behaviour is deteriorating. We have contacted the Behaviourist, based at the vet, about the nipping and have followed her advice, but DDog still tries to attack feet and hands, often in an attempt to play, and despite our best efforts.

DDog has also become very barky. Again the Behaviourist advised us how to deal with this, which I thought was going pretty well, but he has now started barking and growling at people just passing the house.

It sounds silly, as he is only a Maltese, but his nips really hurt.

I have an 8 year old daughter who cannot cope with th1r barking or nipping due to Aspergers. I am worried that the dog will try to bite her when she pushes him away from licking her fave etc.

It seems as if in the past few weeks, the behviour has deteriorated more.

Does anyone have any advice re what the best thing to do in this circumstances?

We were looling at rehoming anyway due to the barking and its adverse affects on my daughter. I have contacted Maltese Rescue and have arranged for the lady to call me back.

Do I try to rehome or PTS? Any advice would be great.

Wolfiefan Sat 08-Dec-18 19:12:28

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BiteyShark Sat 08-Dec-18 19:15:59

Please don't try and justify the PTS. Do the right thing and rehome the dog.

starcrossedseahorse Sat 08-Dec-18 19:16:13

OP re-home your puppy please. You said that you were going to so what has changed exactly?

TBH I am wondering if this is genuine at all as no genuine vet would come out with that load of rubbish.

BiteyShark Sat 08-Dec-18 19:19:19

I agree with Wolfie, I think the dog is real but would be very surprised at such a vet.

starcrossedseahorse Sat 08-Dec-18 19:20:12

OP just needs to re-home in that case. That pup deserves better.

pigsDOfly Sat 08-Dec-18 19:26:21

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

fleshmarketclose Sat 08-Dec-18 19:44:23

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/the_doghouse/3414793-Rehoming-my-beloved-boy-Only-11-months-How?msgid=82379711

It looks like OP has been considering rehoming for a while and now has something to justify it tbh.

starcrossedseahorse Sat 08-Dec-18 19:48:44

How very interesting. I am now even more convinced that this puppy should go to a new home before he is much older.

OP, please do the right thing.

missbattenburg Sat 08-Dec-18 19:52:11

Interestingly, a month ago this dog was bombproof and has the best temperament of any dog I have ever known. He loves everyone and even wants to play with the local cats

AgathaF Sat 08-Dec-18 19:56:28

Also interesting is that 1 month ago he was 11 months old. Now, one month later, he is 10 months old.
I actually hope this is a troll.

ExcitedForChristmas18 Sat 08-Dec-18 20:03:45

I hope it is aswell..I'm going to be looking at all women with bloody Maltese puppies now! This thread is just so upsetting.
We need more laws in the UK regarding ownership of pets.
If you ever get rid of an animal, just because you can't be bothered with it..you should never be allowed one again!

Kardashianlove Sat 08-Dec-18 20:44:46

Reading this and your other thread, although your circumstances have changed, it does sound as though you haven’t really thought the whole dog thing through properly (which is sadly so common and why there are so many dogs in rescue centres).
I understand your DDs diagnosis was after you got the dog but there must have been signs of her sensory issues before then. It must be hard for her to cope with the dogs licking and barking but surely you had an idea she was sensitive to loud unpredictable noises and you know that dogs bark! Also, there must have been signs of her tactile issues that would indicate she may find a dog/puppy licking/pawing her distressing.
As a completely separate issue, if this was completely unpredictable to you, then seeking help from an OT may be beneficial as being able to predict possible sensory issues for your DD will help massively in the long term in helping to cope with her ASD and teaching her to cope.

You were considering rehoming the dog a month ago then decided to keep him, now you are considering rehoming again. It just seems really unfair on the dog and your DD as veing indecisive will make it harder for you to be committed to the dog.

The fairest thing is to make a decision either way. If you decide to rehome do so as soon as possible. This is best for the dog and your DD. If you decide to keep the dog, invest a lot of time in proper research and training. Decide whether you are able to commit properly to this as well as meeting the needs of your DD. Remember teenagers with ASD can struggle much more in puberty, making sensory issues worse. When there is a lot more in general life to cope with, sensory tolerance is reduced. So things like going to secondary school, exams, issues with friends, etc can then mean she may have lower sensory tolerance to noise/licking and may find barking even more distressing than she does now. (Or you could do lots of therapy with her and find her sensory processing issues improve massively). There is no way to know for sure but the more you research, the better able you will be to make the right decision.

TetleysSurpassesYorkshireTea Sat 08-Dec-18 21:03:26

I have only read the last few entries. Anyone who thinks I am a troll, please be my guest and report.

I am real. DDog is real, vet is real.

DDog was born on 26.1.2018. Is that 10 or 11 months?

I am not trying to get rid of my dog and looking for any excuse, as someone who believes they have a better insight into my brain than me, maintains.

I am trying to do the best for my DD and DDog in very stressful circumstances, in the face of a recent diagnosis for DD, my marriage breakdown, and a flare of my disability.

Anyone doubting me, I couldn't care less, but saying there must have been signs of my DDs sensory issues before I got DDog, how fucking dare you! angry

My daughter has always adored dogs. I thought a DDog may help her. Her sensory issues have worsened due to a class change and the marriage split. She now cannot cope. Is that ok with posters here or do you want to see her referral letters? Her diagnosis is pretty recent. Is that ok too?

I am absolutely horrified at the utter lack of understanding, compassion and empathy by some of the more vociferous posters here.

I am utterly shocked at the gleeful venom shown by some of the posters here. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

missbattenburg Sat 08-Dec-18 21:20:51

OP, a month ago your dog's temperament was perfect and it was your daughter that was struggling. Within a month he has tried to bite to the point you think it would be best to pts. In light of your most recent update I wonder just how much of this incredible level of stress the dog is picking up on.

Objectively, this dog:
- is living in a house that is experiencing very high levels of stress and disruption
- with a daughter who struggles to cope with normal dog behaviour
- is not getting the right level of exercise and interaction
- is experiencing normal teenage hormonal fluctuations

These are all things you have pointed out yourself. I actually think it would be a miracle dog who could withstand all that and not act out. Yours seems to have had a complete u-turn, in terms of behaviour from the perfect dog to one who vet and owner think should be pts. This rapid turnaround of behaviour suggests he is struggling to cope in the environment he is in.

The fact that neither your vet nor behaviourist has put all this together and realised it could be informing the bite, suggest they are not being told the full picture or are particularly bad at their jobs. 'Rage syndrome' is idiopathic aggression - aggression for which there is no understandable cause. From the circumstance you have described there is a very understandable cause.

Rehome via a breed specific rescue and give this dog a chance to live with someone who understands dogs and has the time/energy/health/resources to cope with him.

Kardashianlove Sat 08-Dec-18 21:46:03

saying there must have been signs of my DDs sensory issues before I got DDog, how fucking dare you!
It would be very unusual for a 7/8 year old (with ASD) to have no sensory issues prior to this age and then suddenly develop noise and tactile sensitivity. But yes, like you say they can worsen due to other stress factors. Which is something to consider moving forward, is your DD able to cope with a dog long term as other things are likeky to happen in the future to make her sensory issues worse.
Is it fair on your DD and the dog for you to try to manage both her and the dog.

It may be best to rehome the dog and use that time and money you would have spent on the dog to invest in sensory intergration therapy for your DD. There is a massive amount you can do to improve sensory processing difficulties.
Predicting things that will cause sensory overload (such as having a dog that will bark and lick) will help massively.

My daughter has always adored dogs. I thought a DDog may help her. But adoring dogs and being able to cope with a dogs behaviour in your home full time are two totally different things.

It’s done now though, we all make poor decisions from time to time and you are obviously very upset by it. The best thing you can do is learn from it and try to now make the best decision for your DD and the dog. But try to decide soon, the worst thing you can do is keep them dog then in another month or so decide to rehome.

doodledott Sat 08-Dec-18 22:34:10

@TetleysSurpassesYorkshireTea how often do you bath DDog, OP?

RLOU30 Sat 08-Dec-18 23:22:38

It is you who should be ashamed , OP.

I suggest you never even get so much as a goldfish in the future.

Best wishes to the puppy in finding it’s new forever home. Please god 🤞🏻

BettyBooJustDoinTheDoo Sat 08-Dec-18 23:39:24

This thread is really upsetting your poor poor dog, you have been advised time and time again to re home, but for some unexplicable reason you want the dog PTS, a dog like you have would be re homed in a heartbeat, there is absolutely no need for all this attention seeking angst, none at all, bottom line you don’t want the dog, if you have any ounce of compassion for that poor creature get it to a rescue centre tomorrow and give it a half decent chance of finding a loving home. As for you being horrified at the lack of compassion you are receiving from this thread that is exactly how many posters feel about you and your lack of compassion and it’s not gleeful venom people are showing it’s horror about this situation you have created which could be resolved by surrendering your dog to a decent rescue centre. Never more have I hoped that a thread is not real than this one.

RCohle Sat 08-Dec-18 23:43:51

OP I appreciate you are going through a difficult time and are getting a bit of a pasting here.

However telling posters that they lack compassion and empathy because they have been blunt on an Internet forum when you were seriously considering having a healthy dog killed shows a shocking lack of self awareness.

Your dog has clearly not been able to receive the attention he needs given your personal circumstances. Please have him rehomed.

WendyWoofer Sun 09-Dec-18 01:04:05

I am trying to do the best for my DD and DDog in very stressful circumstances, in the face of a recent diagnosis for DD, my marriage breakdown, and a flare of my disability

It seems your dog is the bottom of the pile in the attention stakes.

Your circumstances, at present, are not in a dogs best interest. There is no fucking need for the puppy to be PTS! Just be fair to the dog and give him to a breed specific rehoming centre, where he will be rehomed and have a decent quality of life.

BiteyShark Sun 09-Dec-18 06:01:50

We are showing compassion. Compassion for a dog who just needs to be rehomed rather than being PTS for something understandable. My dog is the most placid dog in the world, has undergone more bloody nasty procedures in his short life than I have. BUT when I have to manhandle him I am fully aware that he may bite as he is scared and sometimes in pain. If he did I certainly would not be thinking of PTS as it's normal just as it is for me to cry/pull away or scream get off me if I am being restrained and thought someone (even my closest person) was going to cause me pain.

We are all saying rehome because we think it is best for everyone. I am doubting the vet because I can'timagine my vet diagnosing 'rage syndrome' if I came in and told them he tried to nip when restrained and I was going for his face. Mine also struggles at the groomers because he is frightened of being manhandled which is a normal response and good groomers recognise this and work with the dogs to condition them to tolerate it over time.

Whatever you think of 'us' you do need to rehome and I am not sure why you keep veering from rehome to not when you was honestly thinking PTS at the beginning of this thread.

fieryginger Sun 09-Dec-18 06:26:07

I've never had a dog and don't really like them (several bad experiences over the years, usually due to rubbish owners), but I'd consider rehoming asap. It sounds like puppy behaviour but you do not want to let it become the norm for him.

If you can get him to an experienced breed owner, sooner rather than later, hopefully, this behaviour can be addressed.

I see no need for him to be pts at 10 months old.

I'd move quickly though. Good luck.

starcrossedseahorse Sun 09-Dec-18 10:53:12

What BettyBoo said.

Please, please re-home this little dog OP. It is a bad fit all round. All you have to do is get him in to a rescue and they will do the rest.

TetleysSurpassesYorkshireTea Sun 09-Dec-18 10:57:00

For those who are.outraged at the vet querying a neurological condition with pup, this is due to what I told her re the attempted bite, and also what the Behaviourist has queried due to her witnessing some sudden, unprovoked, behavioural changes in DDog.I.e. going from utterly placid and bomb proof to really OTT behaviour. This started about a month ago and I got the Behaviourist out the week after. They have done several extended home visits and given us a toolkit of advice to use.

For those querying the vet's credentials and neurological insight, the vet herself isn't a specialist but has colleagues who are. It is an animal hospital we take DDog to, as we are lucky enough to live very close to one.

The vet said 1) Check no underlying cause for biting in terms of pain, 2) She would speak to the Behaviourist, 3) IF DDog started to bite more often, that PLUS other changes PLUS more tests to be conducted, but if it is some rage syndrome, then in that case PTS is fairest.

The reason I am not rehoming instantly is because Maltese breed rescue don't work like that! I have to wait for the lady and her colleagues up and down the country to find DDog a new home. He will be rehomed direct from me to his new forever home. They don't have dogs go to foster anymore as they think it is fairer for dogs to only get attached to the new owner, rather than an interim family. I agree with that, DDog would be heartbroken at being pushed from pillar to post.

So DDog stays with me until his forever home is found. If I "rehome straight away" as some have suggested, it couldn't be through breed rescue. It would have to be via another rescue, and poor DDog would go mad in a cage waiting for new owners. I cannot do that to him. I wont let him feel abandoned. I will rehome him as breed rescue advise to a family who are experienced dog owners, are able to give him the exercise he needs long term (I physically cannot continue long term to walk for 90 mins across two walks per day), and will give him all the input he needs.

I thought taking this approach was the right one, but am now doubting whether breed rescue are correct, as so many here are saying to rehome straight away.

Plus, the reason why the vet is saying she thinks that pup is not a cross, is that some of his behaviours, which the Breed Club/Rescue lady said weren't typical Maltese behaviours, can be according to the vet. Vet really doesn't think he is a cross, due to body shape etc. We can have a DNA test to find out but I don't see a practical reason to do this, and am loathe to put DDog through unnecessary tests which fundamentally serve no purpose.

Those who have implied or outright said I am a troll on this thread, have been reported.

starcrossedseahorse Sun 09-Dec-18 11:49:23

Good to wait for the breed rescue. Hopefully they will come up with a home very soon as this is clearly a bad situation for all concerned.

You are doing the right thing by re-homing.

Wolfiefan Sun 09-Dec-18 12:25:59

You have an untrained and possibly under exercised dog. Your story is completely inconsistent.
If it’s a pedigree you will have papers. If it’s a cross you won’t.
It’s likely a puppy farmed dog with little socialisation before you got it. You’ve not done training or worked to prevent/avoid undesirable behaviours.
This isn’t rage syndrome. It’s you not doing the job of dog owner with any competency.

starcrossedseahorse Sun 09-Dec-18 12:35:19

But at least the OP is now going to re-home which I would say is an excellent result for the puppy (which is all that really matters here).

TetleysSurpassesYorkshireTea Sun 09-Dec-18 12:37:10

Thank you starcrossed I will wait for the breed rescue lady to find him the best home possible.

I am very aware that we are only a few weeks from Xmas, and DDog is a gorgeous, cute little pup. I am scared to death that if I gave him to a rescue centre that wasn't breed specific, a family may adopt him as a Xmas present which I abhor.

I got DDog for life, not imagining for a minute that I would ever be faced with the situation I am in now. It is breaking my heart to rehome him, but I squash my feelings down about it, because I know it is DD and DDog who matter most.

I am so glad that he doesn't need to be PTS. He deserves a lovely life with a family who can meet his needs. I hope the breed rescue lady finds that for him.

In the interim, I will keep up implementing the measures the Behaviourist has suggested, and have copied the report to the breed rescue lady so she has as much info as possible.

TetleysSurpassesYorkshireTea Sun 09-Dec-18 12:53:10

@Wolfiefan - I have the papers showing generations of parentage etc for DDog. He is pedigree as far as I can know without having DNA testing done. The breed rescue lady thought he may be a cross but the vet has said she really doesnt think so.

DDog initially went to KC training classes and is very well trained in most areas. We are implementing the suggestions the Behaviourist has made.

DDog is walked for 90 mins a day over two walks. During which he runs until he is exhausted and lays on the floor panting happily. When he has had enough, that's when he comes home.

Can you please tell me how he is underexercised? And how he is untrained? Please can you tell me how training him and having help from a Behaviourist is doing nothing to prevent/avoid unwanted behaviours? I am clearly missing something else that I should be doing. Please could you elaborate so that I can implement your suggestions whilst breed rescue are finding him a new home.

I do not see how my "story" is inconsistent. If you think I am making things up, I am uncertain why you are bothering to post.

Wolfiefan Sun 09-Dec-18 13:00:32

One lot of lessons doesn’t make a trained dog. It takes months and months of hard work.
You have a dog that clearly doesn’t like being groomed and bathed. Yet you wrap it in a towel for a “cuddle”. Your dog has said it doesn’t want this but you’re not listening.
Dog on a lead or longline or not around child would prevent the biting.

tabulahrasa Sun 09-Dec-18 13:13:25

Rage syndrome? hmm

What on Earth are you telling them has happened for them to be thinking that’s a possibility?...

You might think a snap while wrapped in a towel and having his face mucked about with is unprovoked and sudden - but it’s really really not... and if any professional you’re seeing thinks that’s unprovoked you need to find new ones, because they know so little about dogs that I’d be checking their qualifications and ID.

Unprovoked means no identifiable cause, not I did something and the dog didn’t like it, but I’m not ok with the dog not liking it...

Also in what way is a DNA test any hassle for the dog? I mean it’s completely irrelevant whether he’s the breed he’s supposed to be or not, but it’s not like they do a spinal fluid sample for a DNA test.

BiteyShark Sun 09-Dec-18 13:18:34

Yes it's best to go through the breed rescue although you might also want to look at other 'good' rescues that rehome direct to new owner.

All dogs have their personalities as well as breed characteristics so just because a puppy exhibits other traits does not make him or her a cross. Right now whether he's a pedigree/cross, from a good breeder or not is not important. The important thing is finding him a suitable home whilst you manage his fears. Try not to put your dog in any situation that is scary for him until he is rehomed. Clearly scary for him is being restrained.

tabulahrasa Sun 09-Dec-18 13:25:37

Oh and rescues do not rehome dogs as Christmas presents btw, most wont rehome anywhere near Christmas.

adaline Sun 09-Dec-18 14:15:11

I have the papers showing generations of parentage etc for DDog.

That doesn't mean anything. I know dogs homed from puppy farms that come with generations of "pedigree". Anyone can write up a pedigree certificate on their computer and claim it's genuine.

I am clearly missing something else that I should be doing.

Recognise that your dog is not bombproof and you can't expect to be able to swaddle him in a towel and prod him in the face without him lashing out. Just because he's tolerated it up to now doesn't mean it's the right way to treat him. Most dogs don't like being held in positions where they can't escape.

You need to treat your dog as an animal with his own feelings and you can't expect him to just tolerate any manner of behaviour. Mine is a similar age and doesn't like being picked up or held. He loves strokes and fuss but on his terms and in positions where he can escape and move away when he wants. Start treating him like a dog and not a toy that you can just manoeuvre and do whatever you like to!

pigsDOfly Sun 09-Dec-18 15:02:46

Well, that's a switch.

Over a few posts the puppy has gone from a animal with 'Rage syndrome' that a vet has told you probably needs to be pts to one that you're now glad doesn't have to be pts.

What's changed?

adaline Sun 09-Dec-18 15:13:56

What's changed?

She didn't like people's thoughts on putting a 10 month old puppy to sleep so she's changed her story!

MillicentSnitch Sun 09-Dec-18 15:19:30

A good rescue will make sure that he goes to people who understand that he's got some behavioural issues, so there's no danger of him winding up with a family who don't understand him. And there'll be no Christmas adoption - we adopted our dog in early December only because he was very sick and wouldn't have lasted in kennels. A big exception was made for us - normally pre-Christmas adoptions weren't allowed. There's no shame in your and your dog's needs being different - a chance to thrive in a better-suited home will be the best gift you can give him.

ExcitedForChristmas18 Sun 09-Dec-18 15:28:18

Adaline my thoughts exactly!!

starcrossedseahorse Sun 09-Dec-18 15:46:36

TBH I cannot see what having a go at the OP is achieving here. She has said that this puppy will be re-homed sensibly with his needs catered for and that is what matters.

adaline Sun 09-Dec-18 16:06:37

Because people are fed up with people rehoming (or trying to get PTS) puppies for displaying completely normal puppy behaviours.

Dogs don't like being trapped and then having things poked near their eyes - even well trained, calm adults would dislike it. This is a 10 month old puppy who was forced into a situation it didn't like - it then showed how unhappy it was and it's owner wanted to have it PTS!

I really wish more people would do their bloody research before taking on a living creature and treating it like a doll angry dogs are animals and should be treated with respect, not expected to tolerate everything we throw at them with no repercussions!

starcrossedseahorse Sun 09-Dec-18 17:21:25

I quite agree and I work with a dog rescue and have seen/heard things that keep me awake at night.

However, I care only for this puppy and it seems that he has got the best outcome for him on the horizon.

TetleysSurpassesYorkshireTea Sun 09-Dec-18 17:52:36

Adaline - I did not want him put to sleep. I was worried that I had to because he had tried to bite on this and one other occasion.

To be quite frank, if I had wanted to have pup PTS then I would have done so at the vets. But I didn't because I Don't want to!

I posted here to CHECK what I should do, and I am glad that I did so as I have received some helpful advice.

However, the snide, nasty insinuations of some posters have been awful. Hence there being so many deletions on this thread.

There have been comments made that are completely unacceptable, and utterly contrary to the kind, caring people some of you clearly think you are.

Maybe trying to be as compassionate to humans as you are to.animals would be a nice idea.

ExcitedForChristmas18 Sun 09-Dec-18 17:58:55

No one in their right mind is going to be compassionate to somebody that ever considered KILLING a healthy puppy?

All you have done is receive loads of comments, not liking them you have then fed everybody more crap. Back pedalling desperately to convince us that what you had said was reasonable and logical.

TetleysSurpassesYorkshireTea Sun 09-Dec-18 18:04:14

Excitedforchristmas - oh FGS, you are strangers on the internet. Why would I bother lying to you all? I haven't backpedalled whatsoever, I have stated the facts as they are.

Get a grip and stop being so bloody horrible.

Wolfiefan Sun 09-Dec-18 18:04:52

Your OP asked whether to PTS or rehome.
It’s hard to feel compassion for people who take on animals without proper research and with proper consideration for what they’re taking on.
The animal always suffers.

adaline Sun 09-Dec-18 18:10:14

I did not want him put to sleep. I was worried that I had to because he had tried to bite on this and one other occasion.

But he's a puppy - it shouldn't have ever been a consideration! I think that's what people are trying to say, that puppies nip and bite and it's completely normal behaviour at both 10 weeks and 10 months old. Yes it's undesirable and yes, it's painful but it's absolutely not a reason to even consider having the dog put to sleep.

When you start a thread with that in the title and it turns out the pup is only 10 months old you need to understand you've put peoples backs up and upset them. Lots of posters here work with rescues and deal with the aftermath of puppies who have been bought and rehomed because people don't like/can't cope with completely normal adolescent dog behaviours. This is just one of hundreds that come up on here every year.

Yes, the dog is getting rehomed which is great but rehoming dogs will cause issues in itself. Too many people get dogs and can't cope with the reality, give them up to rescue and the dogs then have abandonment issues or anxiety over being left and the cycle continues.

Frequency Sun 09-Dec-18 18:17:39

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ExcitedForChristmas18 Sun 09-Dec-18 18:41:20

What would you have done if people on here would of said 'yep put it down!'
Toddled off to the vets and had it killed?!

IWasTrendingThereForAMinute Sun 09-Dec-18 18:47:28

Get him castrated next week and find him a new home or return to breeder ASAP.

TetleysSurpassesYorkshireTea Sun 09-Dec-18 18:49:19

Frequency - yes, it is true. It is totally unacceptable to accuse someone seeking support of telling lies.

How is being vile to a person, asking questions to do their best for their dog, actually going to help my dog's welfare?

Furthermore, if you think what I have written isn't true, why bother commenting on the thread?

If you think I am a troll, take it up with MNHQ.

Frequency Sun 09-Dec-18 19:00:25

The behaviourist and the vet need retraining. I would report them to their governing bodies, if I were you, OP.

Frequency Sun 09-Dec-18 19:14:04

To clarify, the question I asked which was deleted was more of a statement of fact, than a question.

There are zero reported cases of rage syndrome in Maltese Terriers. For a behaviourist and a vet to jump to rage syndrome in a breed it is unknown in without running EEGs and a battery of other tests is utterly bizarre. If they did tell you your puppy, who is, by all descriptions on this thread, displaying utterly normal behaviour for its breed and has a 'kind of rage syndrome' and they haven't done tests or referred this to the Royal College of Veterinary Science for further research, then they for sure need reporting.

It's not great to take on a puppy and then decide you can't cope and rehome but it's not the end of the world. You don't need an excuse other than I can't cope.

starcrossedseahorse Sun 09-Dec-18 19:14:04

OP my advice to you is not to engage further. Just get your puppy re-homed by the breed rescue.

TetleysSurpassesYorkshireTea Sun 09-Dec-18 22:52:21

starcrossed - thank you, I do intend to rehome via the breed rescue. DDog is currently snoring happily on the bed next to me.

It is easier said than done not to engage. I appreciate that how I posted initially may have got people's backs up, but I have explained over and over again. I can only reiterate what I was told by the vet.

As I am not (despite the apparent beliefs of some on here) a complete fool, I was very accurate in the info I told the vet. I explained the context of the attempted bite. I did also tell her that DDog's behaviour had recently started to suddenly change and he will race around the house growling, then kind of snap out of it and go back to being his happy self, albeit he seems exhausted after his OTT racing around growling etc. I told the vet it had happened a few times over the past month or so - maybe twice a week - and that this had been seen by the Behaviourist on one of their visits which I was glad about.

I am not a vet and have zero idea what can cause this, but she said that apparently there are some syndromes which can make dogs seem really angry and then they stop.

It is horrid enough having to rehome DDog who I am really attached to, and who is very attached to me. It is also horrible knowing that I have inadvertantly provoked him into trying to bite me - of course I feel terrible about that and DDog shouldn't in any way have to pay for my mistakes. I panicked and could only think about what if he tried to bite my daughter.

I never wanted to have him PTS. I mistakenly thought that any dog who attempted to properly bite someone had to be. But I asked here because I didn't want to and wanted to make sure.

Surely it is obvious that if I had wanted DDog put to sleep, I would have simply gone to the vet and done so, without posting here first.

I am upset at being called a liar. It is unfair and unfounded. The vet said that if DDog does have some kind of Rage syndrome, then putting to sleep is kindest. She also mentionned possible epilepsy causing similar outbursts of strange behaviour (not the biting, nipping or barking but the other sruff) which my STBXH has reminded me about this evening.

I don't know who or what to believe any more. Posters here are saying that Maltese dogs cannot get rage syndromes. Which would mean the vet is wrong. The vet and breed rescue lady have contradicted each other. I don't know which way is up and am then getting ripped to shreds on here. It is horrible. Really upsetting.

I have posted that life is very stressful at the moment, and I guess I thought I would just get my question answered without receiving such abuse in response.

So not engaging isnt that easy when my integrity is being called into question.

TetleysSurpassesYorkshireTea Sun 09-Dec-18 22:53:56

Frequency - that isn't what the vet said and not what I wrote. If you read back, they are querying it as a possibility. And DDog would need tests to see. I wrote that for goodness sake!

TetleysSurpassesYorkshireTea Sun 09-Dec-18 22:57:27

ExcitedForChristmas18 - No, of course I wouldn't. I would have asked the vets advice, which I still did anyway.

fleshmarketclose Sun 09-Dec-18 23:30:40

Tetleys the running around the house growling and then snapping out of it is puppy zoomies, it's completely normal and generally happens when a dog is happy with his lot or has had an especially nice experience. So a walk in the rain and mud sets Bella off.

fleshmarketclose Sun 09-Dec-18 23:38:28

Here look

fleshmarketclose Sun 09-Dec-18 23:49:02

Obviously it's different for all dogs, but Bella runs circuits of the downstairs growling, Eric tends to run round jumping on and off furniture barking but both of the conk out exhausted afterwards and sleep.

TetleysSurpassesYorkshireTea Mon 10-Dec-18 00:12:52

Flesh - thank you for that. DDog does do that, but the running around growling is in a different way than in the film. He seems furious and his growls seem more directed towards us than growling in general IYSWIM.

He will race about, stop, growl at us, then carry on. He just seems not himself when he is doing it. Like he isn't "there" anymore. Then suddenly, he is "back".

After a bath, he has the normal mad half hour that dogs have, when he races around like a bonkers thing, and is utterly hilarious. We just let him get on with it and watch with amusement.

It sounds ridiculous because pup is so small, but the running around growling he has started to do over the past month, and the nipping that he does during that, seems different to the nipping he does when he is trying to play and seem like playbites and mouthing.

The nips during these sudden outbursts seem like angry nips if that makes sense, and that they only feel like nips because he is so small. But still, the proper aimed bite attempt the other day (which I accept was my own fault) would have been scary as hell if DDog was bigger.

The running around growling and seeming angry is why I called in the Behaviourist. Because it seemed so out of character. Behaviourist has provided notes to the vet as part of the same animal hospital so on the same computer system. And Vet has responded as I explained earlier in the thread.

If poor DDog has been in pain, that would hopefully explain this behaviour.

TetleysSurpassesYorkshireTea Mon 10-Dec-18 00:16:04

Sorry, posted too soon....

If pain relief doesn't help and DDog continues having these weird outbursts, then vet says he should have more tests. That's when she mentionned anger conditions and epilepsy as possibles, and gave the prognosis if it is the former, when I asked.

tabulahrasa Mon 10-Dec-18 00:24:01

“I am upset at being called a liar. It is unfair and unfounded.“

I didn’t call you a liar - but I did say there’s something wrong with either how you’re describing his behaviour here or to the vet...

Basically because it’s like saying you took a 2 year old to the GP because he had a tantrum and bit you and the GP suggested a really rare developmental disorder...

fleshmarketclose Mon 10-Dec-18 00:25:13

I think if you came here when Bella or Eric were having zoomies you could probably be frightened by them because they do sound aggressive and Eric's leaping about on the furniture looks intimidating. Your dog is at the right age for a surge in hormones which makes them stroppy little gits at times. I remember Eric's adolescence and shudder more than I do about him as a puppy and that wasn't pleasant either. But even though he was a little git then when he pushed every boundary and then some he's a lovely dog now and I'd hazard a guess that your dog will be once he's settled in his new home. There is a reason Bella is a rescue dog and that is because Eric as a puppy and an adolescent put me off ever having a puppy ever again.

Dottierichardson Mon 10-Dec-18 00:45:26

1.) Okay first of all it is not important whether your puppy is a pedigree or not, he is an individual not an appliance or a car...all dogs' temperaments vary...in addition many breeds/cross-breeds have been so overbred/poorly bred the genetic predispositions that may have been true of them in the past are often now not the case. Also docility is not guaranteed in any animal, calmness comes with training, decent handling/care and maturity...

2. Any behaviourist that does not refer you to a decent rewards-based trainer to deal with helping you and your puppy develop a good bond and interact appropriately - and living with a dog is a two-way street, humans need to learn how to act around them as much as vice versa - is not a behaviourist to stay with...

3. Growling, nipping, rushing around, and not just mad dashes - but both my dogs, and my husband's twelve previous dogs - as lived with dogs from early childhood - had periods as puppies when they have mad hours for no apparent reason. Similarly if your puppy has hip pain, then rushing around will exacerbate that and make them act out. Puppies like small children cannot make connections between pain and causes, so if you wrapped them in a towel at some point and this put pressure on the hip and caused pain, they may now associate that pain with you...as you haven't done any formal, rewards-based training to develop a good mutual relationship that is even more possible.

3. If your vet is saying rage syndrome that's very weird, have been around a lot of dogs and puppy classes, all young puppies nip, are overly exuberant, some are more growly than others, it's not abnormal in any way...but it will lead to expensive tests...very lucrative. Get a second opinion.

My older dog was condemned as aggressive by a vet when very young, because refused a muzzle...Vet very seriously harangued us about putting him to sleep i.e. killing him. Got a second opinion, turned out had hotspot under fur and muzzle was being jammed onto that, any dog would go ballistic as hot spots are very painful. Maybe the difference was that we wanted to fight for our dog and weren't prepared to give up on him without exploring all possibilities. Look for a vet who has done work with animal charities or with the RSPCA, they will have an animal-centred practice and are more likely to be sensible...

4. Reputable rescue centres will assess a puppy and rehome accordingly, this is a puppy they will be able to deal with that.

5. Don't get another dog ever, they all dash around, have periods when they don't want to be handled, have certain likes/dislikes about training, need people who champion them....and don't fixate on what type they are...any/all can nip and bite if put under certain kinds of pressure. Puppies will allow all kinds of handling when very small that they will not when older, this is why training so crucial, which means that people who have no idea how to train get away with things when dogs are young and then can't cope with resultant behaviours when dogs are older. Also as puppies get older they will test boundaries and so on...just like children do...it really doesn't sound as if you can cope with that or maybe are sufficiently dog-centred to commit to it...the fact that you even contemplated killing such a young dog for such normal behaviour speaks volumes. I think posters on here have been kind...

TetleysSurpassesYorkshireTea Mon 10-Dec-18 01:41:34

Dottie - you think people have been kind? What would you have preferred them to say to me? Abuse? That I am a liar? Unfit to ever have a pet? Yeah well, all that has been said.

To be honest, the flaming from people such as yourself has now gone past upsetting to almost amusing.

I am stepping back from the thread for a while. I have real life to attend to. I need to chase up the breed rescue lady tomorrow and look at taking pup to an alternative vet for a second opinion. I also need to find a decent dog trainer and tickle DDog's tummy whilst he whimpers with pleasure.

And that's before I get around to the frogs that require blowing up with straws up their bottoms, the spiders whose legs I need to pull off, and the kittens that need kicking. So sadly, I don't have time to hear how cruel I am any longer. Such a shame.....

adaline Mon 10-Dec-18 07:45:01

That behaviour you're describing is totally normal though OP. All dogs growl in play and yes it can look aggressive but it's just doggy adolescence.

Mine is the same age as yours and does it whenever he's overtired or over stimulated. I either give him a frozen kong to occupy himself with or one of us will play tuggy with him.

He's a beagle so much bigger and more energetic than a Maltese and I think if you came to my house during one of his moments you'd be quite scared because you don't seem to accept that it's totally normal behaviour. Undesirable? Of course it is. Tiring and frustrating? Absolutely. But it's still totally normal and absolutely no reason to mention it to the vet!

Rage syndrome indeed!

TetleysSurpassesYorkshireTea Mon 10-Dec-18 09:22:52

Adaline - the Behaviourist saw it themselves on one occasion and was concerned. It concerned me, the Behaviourist and the vet. Also my STBXH.

Should I go with those concerns, three of those people who have seen the behaviour, or just go with someone on the internet saying it is normal. Even though they have never seen the behaviour I am describing?

Surely that would be foolhardy?

Anyway, end result is that DDog is being rehomed when a suitable family is found, and he will have a lovely life, as he currently does. Surely that is now all that matters?

DanielCraigsUnderpants Mon 10-Dec-18 10:20:10

That absolutely is all that matters. You're doing the right thing

TetleysSurpassesYorkshireTea Mon 10-Dec-18 14:11:29

@DanielCraigsUnderpants - thank you. It will absolutely break my heart when he goes but I know it is best for both him and DDog.

If anyone who has read this feels that they may be in a suitable position to adopt DDog, please contact Maltese Rescue.

Mindgoinground12 Mon 10-Dec-18 17:03:49

Op i think you need to calm down a bit people are giving you advice and youre shooting the down, it seems that if its not something you want to here youre shouting back at them.
Eve if he is a full maltise that dosent mean his personna will be that of a stero typical maltise it matters alot about envirment and training ALL puppies will be a bit livly there children!!
I sympathise with have an autistic DC i reallly do, but aving a diagnises dosent automatically mean a dog will be hard to have around, I obvisuly dont know you DD, but dogs can be great companions for those with Autism and can be a real confidence booster.
But it sounds like hes to much, i would re home, but please dont get another dog thinking it was the bread.

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