KC reg vs not KC reg

[OutingMyDog]

If you were buying a puppy (this is purely about buying a puppy not rescuing, obviously) and were trying to choose between a KC regd pedigree from a KC assured breeder and a non KC regd dog of the same breed, how would you go? Presuming you knew the family of the second choice and were 100% sure they aren't a puppy farm and had seen both parents with the puppies etc.

The dog would be a family pet only.

Does it really make a difference to anything?

[BiteyShark]

Why would they not be kc registered if they were a pedigree? That would be ringing big alarm bells for me.

What breed is it? In both cases I would also want to know whether both parents had been tested for any typical health conditions?

[BackToTheFuschia7]

Yes it does. Non registered will be back yard breeders. People making money off their pet, with complete disregard for the welfare of the breed and the relevant health and genetic tests.

[BigBlueBubble]

To be fair, quite often a KC registered breeder will also be a “back yard breeder” who wants to profit from their pets. It isn’t hard to become KC registered and it means very little.

If you want a decent puppy, look at named kennels that have won medals at dog shows for that breed, or contact the secretary of the club for that breed.

[Whitney168]

There are several bad reasons for pedigree dogs not to be KC registered, and no good ones. The bad ones include:

• Parents not registered (presumably the case here), so could be uncertain heritage
  
• One or both parents' registration endorsed - could be for health reasons
  
• No health tests in place, I would assume (this does not mean 'vet checked', this mean clinical and DNA tests).
  

Possibly - but don't take it on face value, people can be very sneaky - could also mean:

• Mother too young or too old for pups to be registered
  
• Mother had too many litters for another to be registered.
  

If you want a pedigree breed, Mother Nature isn't predictable - but you vastly increase your chances of it being healthy, acting right and looking right by buying a KC registered dog from a breeder who shows.

(I will now wait for people to tell me I'm a snob LOL.)

[OutingMyDog]

Thank you all, that's very useful.

We have been looking to get a pedigree and have been speaking to some breeders, all with show winners etc. Then someone we know offered a puppy from her pet (who has kc regd parents but isn't herself for some reason) and a sire who is KC regd (which also seems a bit of an odd match).

I think we'll just stick to the original plan.

[Whitney168]

In those circumstances I would assume that one of the points I posted above related to the mother.

Have they done any proper health checks? The appropriate tests for the breed should be easy to find on the breed club website, but if you need any help interpreting them shout.

Also, seeing both mother and father of a litter is not necessarily a good thing - the right stud dog is not always the closest!

[User467]

KC registration itself means nothing to me but agree it would make me wonder why they hadn't been registered.

The number of prizes a breeder has won is also no sign of whether they are a decent breeder and someone who claimed that as a reason to buy their pup would be a big no for me. I want someone who has welfare as the priority, not prizes

[Whitney168]

Completely agree User467, there are other things I would be looking for too - how they keep their dogs, whether they keep oldies, temperaments and how the breeder is around their dogs - oh, and obviously that the breeder is 'interviewing' the buyer rather than just happy to sell to anyone.

All that said, though, a good show breeder who health tests is the best chance of a typical, happy, healthy puppy with traceability of health tests through the generations.

A puppy will be a family member for 15-odd years, God willing, it's worth finding the right one.

[Vallahalagonebutnotforgotten]

KC registered breeders mean absolutely nothing and you will need to research any breeder very carefully. It is very easy to be a KC registered breeder and there are some horrendous breeders who are KC registered.

They may do some health test but behaviourally the puppies have little input and are poorly socialised by old school breeders.

Do not assume KC registered breeders are all ok.

Health tests are very important but so is the care the puppies get from birth. Many dogs are rehomed and put to sleep due to behavioural issues than ill health.

Take your time research speak to and visit puppies from the same mating. If a new time dog owner do not take a first mating.

[Whitney168]

Take your time research speak to and visit puppies from the same mating. If a new time dog owner do not take a first mating.

Honestly, this is bunkum - not least because any breeder who blindly repeats matings is usually best avoided anyway!

Some good breeders occasionally repeat matings because they didn't get the dog/bitch they wanted first time - lots of bad ones do the same matings four times because that's how many they can register, and the dogs are in their own back yard.

There is unfortunately no easy 'accept this' and 'don't accept that' with buying a dog though. You need to look at the whole picture.

[Vallahalagonebutnotforgotten]

Whitney your comments pretty much rule out any Kc Assured breeder.

[Whitney168]

Not sure which comments you think rule out any specific decent breeder, or a KC Assured one in particular?

However, I know many many breeders, but not a single one that I consider 'good' who is an Assured Breeder. Not saying it's the same in all breeds, but in my breed many joined the scheme initially but left again because the health testing focus was very limiting - and NOT in a way that added value (required testing for a condition that is not a problem in the breed these days, so was very restrictive on stud dogs that could be used).

I don't honestly have a great opinion of the Assured Breeder scheme - it is touted as the panacea to cure all ills by the Kennel Club, but it's endless promotion and free advertising plays right in to the hands of many high-volume breeders in some breeds. (Thankfully, mine is not a 'commercially attractive' breed, and long may it stay that way.)

I say it every time though, buying a puppy is a minefield for those who don't actually have a fair bit of exposure to breeders to know what is good and bad - most families do it once in a blue moon, to replace a pet, and life is very different now.

I would normally say it is easier to avoid any licensed breeder like the plague if a buyer is not experienced, as although there are good ones, there are probably far more bad ones. New legislation is about to put paid to that advice and muddy the waters though, and unfortunately the people it will stop breeding are a lot of the excellent small breeders who feel scared of it and/or don't have the facilities to comply with rules that are not vital in their situation.

I haven't bred a litter in 10 years, and have no young bitches here to breed from - but if I had considered buying another decent bitch with the intention of perhaps a litter or two if they turned out well and health test results were good enough, to be honest it all seems a bit hard now.

[HomeOfMyOwn]

I would never buy an unregistered pedigree because I would worry it's because bitch was too young/ old to breed and or had/ were going to be over bred. Also it can be because of endorsements on the parents registration (these endorsements are usually lifted once necessary health tests have taken place and the person wanting to breed has shown their dogs breeder they have the knowledge and if new to breeding backup of a mentor). So if the endorsements haven't been lifted it is likely because of health issues, poor test results, lack of testing and/or lack of knowledge from breeder - no of which is a good option to get your puppy from.

FYI - KC registered bitches breeding KC registered puppies can have all their litters viewed online by anyone who knows the registered names (just have to sign up for free myKC account).

The point that I think is often missed on these type of threads is how much easier a puppy is for their first owner when they have been well bred and well raised/socialised (by breeder) than a puppy who was poorly bred and/or poorly raised/socialised puppy. It makes a huge difference in how well those early weeks with new owner go and to an extent the rest of the dogs lives.

Definitely go via breed club to find a good breeder.

[furandchandeliers]

I breed French bulldogs and I am KC registered ( I am as a breeder and kennel) and so are my dogs and puppies.

Tbh if just the dog is KC registered it doesn't mean much. If you buy a puppy who is KC registered and mate it with a KC reg sore then the puppies will be KC reg.

What you need to look for is a KC approved breeder, so someone will have been round and checked the living conditions of the dogs and spoken to the breeder.

KC also have certain rules like you can't breed a bitch with a dog she's related to and she can't have puppies under or over a certain age, and there needs to be at least a year in between litters and no more than a certain number of litters in total.

[Ylvamoon]

I think for what it's worth... KC registration means nothing. It's a money making organisation that keeps records of dogs pedigree. They run dog shows and keep a "breed standard" database.
They quite happily dish out "papers" and don't consider the dogs welfare.
I have come across a few irregularities in regards to the assured breeder scheme.
2 examples that stick in my mind are: breeder keeps dogs in kennels (fine) but claims that puppies are raised in the family home, (very good). Except that this was not the case.... once puppy came home with us, he was so scared of the smallest sounds, was scared of the tv and would not go near the sofa...
Second was a litter of puppies with 18% inbreeding. Mum was fully health tested dad wasn't tested at all. It turned out that mum was a carrier for an eye condition - DNA test positive. Dad wasn't tested but his mum was a carrier for the same condition... 50% chance of puppy dad being a carrier and 25% chance of puppy having the condition .... needless to say, I walked away.

[Whitney168]

But your first example could (and regularly does) apply equally to non KC reg puppies, Ylvamoon, particularly the very many commercially bred litters. Visiting shows to see breeders' dogs outside their home environment gives you an opportunity to observe temperaments.

For your second example, at least one parent had traceable health test results, which is better than a non KC reg litter too. 18% COI, but for a non-registered litter they could be mother/father, brother/sister and you'd be none the wiser. As with all registered puppies, you have the opportunity as you say to move on from this litter and find one where both do.

KC registration is not a safeguard, buyers still need to use sense - but at least there IS traceability. With unregistered litters, there is none.

[typoqueen]

i would go for the non KC reg puppy, as you state you know the owners, you know the parents of the pup, the owners will be on hand for help and advice, i always go for home bred pups rather then large breeders, no particular reason other than, i like puppies that are bought up in the home x

[BigLass9]

I agree with typo. Go for the home need pup too that you know the family of.

[wheelwarrior]

My boy is not KC registered .His mum is dad is not .Do have health checks both sides ..The owner wanted a new working dog to bring on as his getting older hence breeding .Dad is a known working dog but not pure Lab he was chosen for his training and working traits..I had to meet them as did my children and convince them that I was able to meet a his energy needs.

[wheelwarrior]

Should add health tests was not just vet check .Ours was word of mouth as I was looking for specific traits ..Ironcally I was turned down by KC breeder without meeting me as they felt i not cope with a puppy as I am in a wheelchair .My boy nearly 4 and yes has nearly all the traits I was looking for and has his Gold award