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Good place for advice or will she get a flaming?

(22 Posts)
VforVienetta Tue 04-Apr-17 13:23:46

Just found out friend's DDog is pregnant, and wondering if I should point her over here for advice?

Her dog is an unusual breed in the UK, and not typical as very small for breed, so after deciding to have one litter (and then have her spayed), they've mated her with a closely related breed that is the same shrimpy size.
Home already sorted for any prospective pups, a long list in fact.

After reading a few threads on here over the years, I'm concerned she'll get flamed for non-proper-pedigree breeding and accused of being a puppy mill!

She's quite nervous about the birth, and would probably really benefit from from seasoned advice, but would not appreciate a bunch of biscuitS and hmms.
Yay or nay?

witwootoodleoo Tue 04-Apr-17 13:26:11

She'd probably get more helpful advice and less flaming on a dog breeding Facebook group

BigBrownSofa123 Tue 04-Apr-17 13:29:18

I've rarely seen anyone get some good advice on here, it's all so contradicting and argumentative.

CornflakeHomunculus Tue 04-Apr-17 13:34:34

She's quite nervous about the birth, and would probably really benefit from from seasoned advice

She really needs to find herself a proper mentor, not rely on advice from forums or FB groups.

If her bitch came from a reputable breeder then I'd suggest them as her first port of call. Although I doubt they'd be terribly pleased about the bitch being bred just for the sake of it I doubt they'd turn your friend away if she needs help and advice.

VforVienetta Tue 04-Apr-17 13:47:56

She has a vet friend who's happy to answer Qs and come over when it happens, but she doesn't want to be bombarding her with questions about it all.

The puppy came from a good breeder when they lived overseas, so it doesn't affect them.
DF won't breed her again after this, they'll keep one puppy themselves and have many options of good homes for the others.

Wolfiefan Tue 04-Apr-17 13:49:59

I would expect a flaming on here. If the two mated dogs weren't health tested and if the breeding was non accidental.
Dogs don't need to have a litter. I can't see why they would do this. Except the money. hmm

CornflakeHomunculus Tue 04-Apr-17 13:55:35

If she just wants to get herself as much information as possible I'd recommend:

The Book of the Bitch

The Champdogs forum

AKC guide to responsible breeding

Puppy Culture

The Puppy Plan

What breeds are the bitch and dog? There may be breed specific things to watch out for with regards to the birth and care of the puppies.

tabulahrasa Tue 04-Apr-17 13:58:30

"The puppy came from a good breeder when they lived overseas, so it doesn't affect them."

It's not about whether it affects them or not, it's that they're the best people to mentor her.

They'll be able to tell her for instance whether there are much bigger dogs in her bitches lines that mean that breeding her to another breed might throw giant pups that she can't deliver.

Or any issues they've consistently had with her relatives during pregnancy or whelping.

VforVienetta Tue 04-Apr-17 14:04:19

Excellent points tabulah - but the horse has bolted so to speak, so it won't do me any good to bang on about it now.

VforVienetta Tue 04-Apr-17 14:05:33

Thank you Cornflake - she has the Book of the Bitch, I'll send her your list.

Female is Havanese, male is Maltese.

VforVienetta Tue 04-Apr-17 14:08:57

Just to clarify, is the dislike of unnecessary breeding of pets that it takes homes away from rescue dogs that might otherwise have been rehomed?

She isn't breeding for profit, and will make sure they're appropriately homed, so I don't accept it's as bad as a puppy mill.

VforVienetta Tue 04-Apr-17 14:11:25

Tabulah - just FYI they're scanning her to keep an eye on pup size, she has at least 3 in there (three heartbeats found), so the risk of them being too big to deliver is smaller, but they'll be keeping a close eye in case a CS is needed.

CornflakeHomunculus Tue 04-Apr-17 14:50:04

Do you know if both dog and bitch are fully health tested?

Neither breed need loads of tests but there are a number of DNA tests that should have been done unless they're clear by parentage.

Both breeds can be affected by Macrothrombocytopenia so the DNA test (or proof of the dogs being clear by parentage) is an absolute must, as is a clear DNA test result for the bitch for Haemophilia A.

The stud dog should also have been tested for Glycogen Storage Disease Type Ia.

The Havanese breed club also recommend an eye test and litter screening under the BVA Eye Scheme.

It's a bit late for the bitch to have an eye test done but your friend should definitely look into having the litter screened by a BVA panellist.

She can go ahead and get the DNA tests done now if they haven't been done already. They don't even require blood taking, a cheek swab is enough, so involve absolutely zero stress for the bitch. The results generally come back within a few weeks so in plenty of time to pass on any relevant information to the new puppy owners.

With regards to breed specific care, toy breeds can be much more prone to eclampsia (the bitch) and hypoglycemia (the puppies). Both are emergencies and the former is more likely to affect bitches after their first litter.

VforVienetta Tue 04-Apr-17 14:52:29

Fantastic information, thank you!
No, I don't know if they were tested, but i suspect not...

Copying and pasting your post now to DF! flowers

Whitney168 Tue 04-Apr-17 17:14:55

Your friend would get good advice from the Champdogs Forum, but it would no doubt come with a hefty side order of flaming. I think she should brave it though, as she is more likely to get the necessary advice specific to the breeding of toy dogs.

I don't suppose the breeder of the bitch will be thrilled about her girl being used for crossbreeds either. I am sure Cornflake's good advice above about health testing will be utterly wasted on most who would cross-breed.

I guess now that the deed is done, your friend needs to learn as much as possible - can't go far wrong with The Book Of The Bitch, as linked above. She needs to ensure that she can identify immediately signs of uterine inertia and many other conditions, or she may well end up with a huge vet's bill, a dead bitch and no puppies.

All that can be done now is to learn damn quick about signs that her girl may need assistance, make sure everything is in place for puppies, and have her bank balance well boosted for all veterinary treatment necessary.

Bitch will need a secure secluded place ready for whelping, away from other dogs and out of hustle and bustle. Book of the Bitch will tell her what she needs to have ready in case she needs to feed them.

Oh, and toy breed puppies should never be rehomed before 12 weeks of age by anyone who cares about their welfare.

Another point to note is that she can almost guarantee that 90% of those homes that are ready and waiting will disappear in to the distance once it comes to actually buying a puppy (am assuming she is not going to give them away out of the kindness of her heart, and even if she was she probably shouldn't).

VforVienetta Tue 04-Apr-17 18:35:39

Thanks Whitney - DF had been advised that puppies should be homed at 8wks as she was told that the bitch sharply loses interest at that point. The person who told her this had experienced this with her own dog, who had become aggressive to her pups at 8wks and had had to keep them separated until all were homed. This sounded a bit weird to me, as I'd previously heard 10 weeks was the norm?

No other dogs present, just an elderly cat and older children - DDog will be left in peace.

VforVienetta Tue 04-Apr-17 18:37:15

Please can you tell me why exactly they should be kept with mum til 12wks? If I'm to persuade DF I'll need some facts! flowers

witwootoodleoo Tue 04-Apr-17 18:48:36

Toy breeds are much more fragile at a young age so are much safer to stay in a quiet and controlled environment until they are older and less breakable. See here from the American Kennel Club for example.

Whitney168 Tue 04-Apr-17 20:42:06

Toy breeds are smaller, slower to wean,, less in need of immediate socialisation, can be prone to hypoglaecemia ...

The bitch will lose interest way before 8 weeks, in most cases. This is entirely natural, and it will be your friend's job to look after them, so if she's expecting the bitch to do it all until they go, there is a shock coming. If she doesn't cut their nails in a timely fashion as they are tiny babies, the bitch could be going off them at 10 days when they're making her sore.

CornflakeHomunculus Tue 04-Apr-17 20:55:58

Puppies generally start weaning at around three to four weeks old

Even before the bitch stops feeding them your friend needs to be doing a lot with them, it's certainly not a case of leaving the bitch to get on with it and then shipping the pups off to their new homes once she's lost interest.

The Puppy Culture and Puppy Plan links I posted earlier will give your friend an idea of the work that should go into raising a litter into well rounded puppies ready to go to their new homes. There's a Puppy Culture Discussion Group on FB which is well worth your friend joining, particularly if she doesn't want to buy the PC DVD, but I would highly recommend getting it for anyone who is breeding a litter.

The Maltese Club code of ethics stipulates that puppies should not go to their new homes before twelve weeks of age.

VforVienetta Tue 04-Apr-17 21:01:47

Great, thank you, makes sense.
Will be seeing DF over Easter so hopefully she'll take all this on board.
Much appreciated!

tabulahrasa Tue 04-Apr-17 22:38:50

"Excellent points tabulah - but the horse has bolted so to speak, so it won't do me any good to bang on about it now"

Well no, she could still get in touch with her bitches breeder... if they were a decent breeder they should have useful information and advice.

"Just to clarify, is the dislike of unnecessary breeding of pets that it takes homes away from rescue dogs that might otherwise have been rehomed?"

Partly...

Partly it's also that they're putting their dog through a physically and mentally stressful and potentially dangerous experience for their own reasons that don't benefit the dog in anyway... which is kind of justifiable if there's a reason to breed that specific dog, not so much when it's just a pet.

But mostly they're responsible for bringing puppies into the world, puppies that if they've not done the right health testing, picked the right stud and made sure they're providing the right care could be left with life altering and potentially painful health issues.

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