Another puppy wobble thread...

[swimster01]

Hello, I have reserved a puppy and am having some wobbles. The people I am buying from seem genuine, pup is KC registered as I found the details on the KC website although actual papers not yet available as only recently registered, saw with mum and dad dog who have lovely temperaments and the other pups in the litter. But then I have read further online that I should expect a quizzing from the breeder about my home arrangements, knowledge of dogs etc - that didn't happen. Also, I wasn't provided with details of worming treatments and vet checks -should this have been done at time of viewing?

[FATEdestiny]

How do you mean find the details on the KC website?

How old is pup and when are you picking up? You can make multiple visits to the litter and breeder. Why not arrange another visit?

[swimster01]

You can locate breeders on the KC website who have registered litters - the breeder isn't one of the 'assured breeders'. They don't come across as professional breeders or use their dogs for showing- these are family pets. Pup is 5 weeks old and I will be collecting at 8 weeks.

[FATEdestiny]

You can locate breeders on the KC website who have registered litters

I think you mean in the puppies for sale section? That's just an advertisment. It doesn't mean anything.

The breeder should be able to tell you the KC ref name for the puppy. You won't be able to find this information on the KC website until you own the puppy. But you could ask the breeder for a screen shot of their "My Kennel Club" page. Assuming the litter is registered (but paperwork not received yet) then the litter should show online for the breeder.

3 weeks until you pick the pup up, I would arrange another visit next weekend. Have a list of questions.

[swimster01]

The KC website states that only KC registered puppies are advertised. The breeder's name is shown and then the date of registration. So I thought this meant that the puppy had to be registered - is that not the case? I might call the Kennel Club tomorrow. The breeder told me she couldn't remember the KC ref name she had given the puppy.

[FATEdestiny]

What is the breed? There are various required health checks for various breeds. The KC website will be able to confirm this.

When you are the breeder you should expect

• see the KC registration certificate of both parents.
  
• ask if they can log into mykc to show you the registered litter. Or refuse to accept pup without certificate
  
• breed specific health checks in parents
  
• see where the pups spend all their time (rather than the pups being bought to you in kitchen/lounge)
  
• see them with mum
  
• fuss mum, check she seems healthy and happy.
  

If it's any consolation, I think having a wobble is fairly normal. I think its a sign that you realise what a big and important decision this is.

[FATEdestiny]

The KC website states that only KC registered puppies are advertised.

I just checked, you are right.

So the dates of birth forctge litters match? Any possibility the breeder currently has multiple litters (ie a puppy farm)? The registered litter might not be yours if tgars the case.

[swimster01]

Hi, the breed has no specific health check requirements - I have gone for a Border terrier. I saw mum and dad and they had lovely temperaments - really loveable and friendly.

Do I need to see the papers for mum and dad if I get the pup papers?

[FATEdestiny]

The breeder told me she couldn't remember the KC ref name she had given the puppy.

Eek. Red flag.

Have you seem the parents KC certificates?

[swimster01]

We went to see them in the family home. There was no suggestion that there was any suspicious activity but not 100% sure how to tell! I haven't seen the papers yet to confirm that the dates match up.

[FATEdestiny]

Do I need to see the papers for mum and dad if I get the pup papers?

If the pups are to be KC registered then both parents must also be registered. If one isn't, pup cannot be registered.

Given your breeders own both dogs, they should have paperwork for them if they are of registered.

[swimster01]

No, I haven't seen any certificates. She said that she had entered lots of names but the website rejects them if there are already names and she couldn't remember what the final one was.

I am very clear in my head that I will not take away puppy without papers but I'd rather not be in the position of having to walk away and have upset DCs on my hands.

[FATEdestiny]

You surely know the aporoximate date of birth of the pups (they are 5 weeks old) and this is shown next to the advert on the kc website when a litter is advertised.

[swimster01]

Yes, those dates match up.

[FATEdestiny]

Yours sounds like your standard responsible owner wobble. You are just worried that you don't make a mistake. This is a big and important decision.

I would arrange another visit next weekend. Email the breeder with a list of things you'd like to see while there (like kc reg) and ask any questions you think of.

A decent breeder would not only have no problem with this, but would in fact actively encourage buyers to ask as many questions as possible. It shows you to be responsible.

[swimster01]

Thanks for the advice. I will contact the Kennel Club tomorrow and make some enquiries, before I send an email to the breeder.

[TrionicLettuce]

Kennel Club registration alone is no guarantee that someone is a decent breeder. All good breeders (at least of KC recognised breeds) will register their puppies but not all breeders producing KC registered dogs are good.

The breeder having both the dam and the sire is worth investigating a bit. It's not necessarily a red flag but there is the risk that the breeder has just used the closest stud rather than the stud who best compliments the bitch. Sometimes excellent breeders will have both parents but it tends to be when one is an import or they have specifically sought out particular lines.

The fact the breeder hasn't grilled you is more alarming. I would expect any decent breeder to want to know about your lifestyle, your family (including meeting them), what you feel you can offer a dog, why you picked their breed and why you picked their litter to go see. I'd also expect them to go over the good and bad points of the breed plus any breed-specific health, care or grooming considerations.

Have you seen any proof of health testing? Most breeds have some tests that should be done on both parents prior to breeding and the breeder should have been happy to show you paperwork for all these and talk through the results with you. If you have the KC names of the parents then you can look up their health test results here on the KC site. The tests that should have been done will vary from breed to breed and some are more vital than others. What breed is the pup?

This article from the Champdogs site is a fairly good guide to finding a breeder and buying a puppy. Their list of questions to ask a breeder is also brilliant and any breeder should be more than happy to answer all of them.

[TrionicLettuce]

Just seen the breed, BTs do have necessary health tests.

Both parents should have had their hips scored and have a current annual eye test.

There are also a number of health conditions that can appear in the breed which can't currently be tested for. The breeder should have thoroughly researched into the lines they've used to be as sure as they can be that the pups aren't likely to potentially be affected.

You can see a list of all health concerns for the breed here.

I'd also check the inbreeding coefficient for the litter. Again, if you have the parents' KC names you can check that here. It should be under the breed average, preferably as close to zero as possible. If it's above the average I'd query that with the breeder.

[BernardsarenotalwaysSaints]

Silly question are you just worried or do you have an instinct something isn't right?

If it's the latter I'd genuinely consider if you want to proceed. I've had an instinct/ gut feeling on more than a couple of occasions when looking for dogs. I've since found out i was right each time.

I do find it odd you haven't been questioned more. Did the conversion flow when you went to visit? You may have revealed more than you realise if it did. I spoke to & messaged the breeder of my Saint for a good week before we went to visit (she was older but the same process applied). It's been the same with the breeder of my Golden pup. I spoke to her weekly from when mums pregnancy was confirmed & we've WhatsApp'd since they hit the ground.

Trionic has given you some fab links to help you out.

[boybabies]

I'm seconding the concern about owning sire and dam. Means convenience for breeder but not necessarily best for litter.
I have a 2 month old border terrier puppy at home so have recently been where you are op.
I would walk away from the scenario you've described. Borders are a fairly common dog, a better prospect will come up where you have no concerns.
I made an appointment to meet someone from my local breed association. She didn't have a litter planned but was a wealth of knowledge about good ethical breeders local to me.
I went to a show, was introduced around and met someone planning a litter who felt right to me. She has never advertised a puppy, all sold long before birth.
Also, not that it was a deciding factor, I was pleasantly surprised to discover my puppy cost a couple of hundred pounds less than those advertised on Gumtree etc.

[Hoppinggreen]

I have KC papers for my dog. We visited the puppies in a home environment, were quizzed about our circumstances etc etc etc.
Turns out he came from a puppy farm

[tabulahrasa]

KC registration is, well, it's fairly meaningless...

Not in that you don't want it, but just in that it's the first basic weed out of breeders that you do, then amongst those that are registering you start looking for a decent one.

[swimster01]

Ok, I emailed my questions and it has all fallen through. Had a phone call from the breeder who says she cannot provide some of what I asked for, feels no trust cet and has pulled out. Now i have to break the news to DC who will be heart-broken. Can anyone offer any further advice about next steps - once bitten twice shy!

[boybabies]

Where are you based?
I posted earlier - speak to your local Border Terrier breed association. They are passionate about improving the breed.
Sounds like you've had a lucky escape.

[TrionicLettuce]

I agree that the relevant breed club is the best place to start, they should be able to put you in touch with breeders who are planning litters. There's a list of the various BT clubs here on the KC site.

A quick google suggests that health testing is not particularly widespread in the breed yet so it may be very difficult to find a breeder who does test. In such a situation I'd want to ask any breeder why they don't feel health testing is necessary. Close relatives of the dam and sire being hale and hearty at advanced ages with no signs of heritable problems is a better answer than just not bothering because they're not yet recommended by the KC or the breed club.

[StandardPoodle]

I'd second speaking to your local BT breed association. I was able to research my poodle's breeder easily as his parents were show dogs - I was also given his inbreeding coefficient and met 7 members of his immediate family (not his father as the breeder didn't own him) - all in immaculate show trim. Both times we visited him and his siblings we met his mum, grandmother, great grandmother and great great grandmother. And yes, his breeder had full details about us and we're still in contact.
I'm sorry your new puppy has fallen through but it sounds as though it was for the best. Good luck with finding another one!