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how do you know you are spending hundreds of £'s on a healthy well reared ddog (and not supporting cruel sickening puppy farming)

(27 Posts)
Shriek Wed 01-Jun-16 18:56:00

puppy farmers are evasive (to put it mildly), with only money-grabbing in mind and following breeding trends as to who wants to buy whats currently trending in ddog mixes.

There are threads/comments on this at the moment.... but

.... what steps do you take to avoid giving your money to them and supporting this appalling trade. I'm into name calling, people who have inadvertently given money to this trade are not stupid; its really not easy to avoid their long-honed tactics to deceive and defraud cruelly.

... so what steps to take to avoid supporting puppy farming?????

Shriek Wed 01-Jun-16 18:57:27

i'm NOT into name calling....!!!! [I mean] i don't think there's any point...

tabulahrasa Wed 01-Jun-16 19:17:55

One sure way is not to expect to be able to just buy a puppy.

Decent breeders usually have a waiting list started well before their bitch ever comes into season, so when you are looking for a puppy, you should be thinking of next year or even the year afterwards not a puppy who is born already.

So what you really should be thinking of doing is talking to breeders about future plans, going on a waiting list and then well, waiting...because they'll be breeding from that bitch no more often than every 2 years and even if they have 2 or 3 bitches they're unlikely to have more than one litter a year.

I mean there's loads more to finding a good breeder, but because you'd have met them and their dogs during that time, you'd know which stud they'd picked and why, about health tests and all the other stuff because you'd have been in touch with them all that time just that one thing would make a huge huge difference.

Wyldfyre Wed 01-Jun-16 19:44:24

Well in the first instance look for a pure breed as they are less likely to be a designer breed

Look for a dog with full Heath checks for both parents.

My experience is limited to working breeds but in those there are bloodlines worth looking out for - either getting pups direct from there or one studded by a dog from those line (eg Drakeshead Labradors)

Booboostwo Wed 01-Jun-16 20:07:26

Look for a pure breed, most breeders will have been working with their breed for many years and know each other. The breeder should have done all the health screening available for the breed and offer paperwork to prove this - do not accept exceptions, sob stories, etc. Be prepared to be on a waiting list and expect to see a litter from a specific bitch and dog. Visit the puppies at least once before buying, you should be able to see the litter and the mum, in good health, in a clean, appropriate environment. The breeder should have information on previous litters, histories on previous puppies and a lot of questions for you.

Bubble2bubble Wed 01-Jun-16 20:47:16

I think tabulahrasa hit the nail on the head. If you go out today or look online and come home with a puppy within a day or two, then you have not bought from someone who has any interest in the pup's welfare.

RebuildingMyself Wed 01-Jun-16 21:00:45

Make sure both parents have any relevant health tests for their breed.

You can check if a dog/bitch really have had the health tests they are telling you they have, on KC website.

Avoid crosses, especially "designer" crosses - major puppy farm and backyard breeder money makers really love these.

If you still really want a cross breed make sure parents still have relevant health tests for their breeds.

Look for a KC Assured Breeder - I don't think its a completely foolproof scheme but it certainly provides a much, much greater chance of the breeder being genuine.

Does the breeder use a contract? Will they take pup back at any point in its life? Does the contract say you can have a full refund if a vet finds anything wrong with pup in first 48hrs you own pup?

Meet their dogs in general. See how they behave in the house - are they relaxed around ordinary household noises (suggesting they do actually live inside the house normally)? Are they friendly, healthy, etc?

See pup for first time whilst still feeding from Mom, as she'll obviously have milk - so you know its not just a "show bitch" they've put pups with to sell them. Then you can go back again once they are older for a "proper" interacting with pups visit.

Don't expect pup to be cheap but also don't think that paying more means a better raised pup either.

Avoid any puppies labelled as imperial - done to sound posh/exclusive and allow dodgy breeders/dealers charge more for the runts of litters.

Don't expect to just go out and get an 8week old pup - good breeders will have had pups reserved way before this time.

Don't use preloved, gumtree, etc. Find puppies through KC Assured breeders or through a breed club.

stareatthetvscreen Wed 01-Jun-16 21:04:05

only buy a pure bred

paperwork re health checks and kc reg

EmmapausalBitch Wed 01-Jun-16 21:19:18

Go to a rescue organisation, not a breeder.

tabulahrasa Wed 01-Jun-16 21:32:18

"If you go out today or look online and come home with a puppy within a day or two, then you have not bought from someone who has any interest in the pup's welfare."

The thing is I'd go further than that because then people think that if they're waiting a few weeks then that's waiting, really good breeders often have more people on their waiting list than puppies, because some people are aware that the right litter is worth waiting for.

And it gives you time to find out everything else and build up a bit of a relationship with them, because they'll want to stay in touch, they'll want updates on that puppy through it's life and even the odd meet up if it's possible - not because they're control freaks but because they're genuinely interested in the dogs they produce.

"Go to a rescue organisation, not a breeder."

Yep, if you're thinking of a crossbreed especially, go to a rescue, they have puppies all the time, they often have litters born in rescue who will have been just as well looked after and well socialised as any breeder would have done and much better than a bad breeder will have.

RebuildingMyself Wed 01-Jun-16 21:47:20

Go to a rescue organisation, not a breeder.

Even then you need to be very careful. There are real rescues like Dogs Trust, RSPCA, etc (including some small independent rescues that are real).
Then there's the don't really give a fuck and thus make money off rescuing dogs ones (not possible to make money if they are genuine and actually ensuring they are doing their best by the dogs). My bro fell victim to one of these - an awful lot of heartbreak.
Then their is the front for a puppy farm type - great way to get rid of the no longer useful bitches and puppies that got too old. This type is not as common since a lot of puppy farms just shoot those bitches and pups.

GinIsIn Wed 01-Jun-16 21:51:39

GinIsIn Wed 01-Jun-16 21:54:41

Hi, we have one of those £1200 designer dogs. She's really trendy and so cute. When we got her she was dying because some fuckwit had bought her from a puppy farm as a Christmas present for their toddler. Please don't buy a puppy at all. There are designer and predigree pups in rescues all the time, and they are just as much an asset to your family as one you've paid a grand for.

PootlePoseysMa Wed 01-Jun-16 23:49:31

Hi Shriek, which breed or cross breed of puppy are you interested in ? I am a fosterer for Many Tears Animal Rescue so I will let you know if there are any in MT rescue at the moment or if any come into MT rescue in the near future.

One positive from the recent Panorama Puppy Farm programme is that the public outcry in some areas has finally forced Local Authorities and Kennel Club inspectors to undertake urgent inspections. The massive, massive negative is that these inspectors have given the Licenced Puppy Farmers 8 days to comply with their licence - so, a Licenced Puppy Farmer is licenced to breed from 10 females - during the inspection the Inspector has seen perhaps 40 females and has given the Licenced Puppy Farmer 8 days to reduce back down to 10 females otherwise his/her licence will be revoked. As you can imagine the Puppy Farmer now wants to get instantly rid of perhaps 30 pregnant females as easily as possible. In the last 2 weeks MT have accepted over 200 unwanted breeders and are in dire straits because there is no more space. The remaining breeding dogs will be killed by the puppy farmers.

Anyhow, within the next couple of months the rescued pregnant breeders will have their litters so there will be hundreds of rescue puppies all needing a home.

PootlePoseysMa Thu 02-Jun-16 00:08:24

I should add - any pregnant female will be sent to a foster home where she can have her puppies in a home environment. The mother and puppies are cared for, loved, socialised and when they are old enough (6 weeks normally) will be micro-chipped and get their first vaccinations. When they are 6 weeks old they will go on the MT web-site to advertise that they will be ready for re-homing at 8 weeks old. At all stages they will be overseen by a MT vet if local to the Rescue or by one of the many wonderful vets local to the fosterers who give their services for free. If there are any identified health issues then that is clearly written up on their MT web page. I imagine that all rescues go through a similar process.

If you adopt a rescue puppy then it is likely that they orginally came from a puppy farm but they will not have the same issues as puppy farm/pet shop puppies because they will have been in foster and they will have been cared for, vaccinated and socialised.

Booboostwo Thu 02-Jun-16 06:31:10

they will not have the same issues as puppy farm puppies

I think for the sake of accuracy it's worth pointing out that they won't have all the issues of a puppy farm. Early socialisation and a vet visit to check health are extremely important and these puppies will get that from their wonderful foster families but they still won't have come from carefully selected parents - selected for temperament, suitability as family dogs and health screening. Those are still valid reasons for going to a breeder than a rescue, especially for a family with young children who would want the best chance at minimising future behavioural problems.

I am on a year plus waiting list for a GSD and very happy to be waiting!

KoalaDownUnder Thu 02-Jun-16 06:37:58

I completely agree with Fenella.

Darklane Thu 02-Jun-16 18:18:31

Tabulahrasa makes many of the good points to follow.
I'd also add ring the secretaries of the breed societies of the breed you're interested in & ask if any of their members are planning litters. Better still, ask them when the next shows are that include classes for their breed, even better if the breed holds its own club shows. Go along, you'll be made welcome. Get talking to the owners of any of the dogs you really like the look of, owners & especially breeders love to talk about their dogs. You'll learn a lot about the breed just watching, talking & , most importantly, listening to the chat round the rings.
Buy the catalogue, it will list the name of each dog in each class, its owner & their address & the breeder if it is someone different. If you study it you will get to know the names & owners of the winning kennels even if another owner is showing in the ring.
I know lots say don't go to breeders, just go to rescue kennels, but if everyone did this there would be no successful, caring breeders working hard to preserve & improve the breeds. Just back street breeders or people who just let their dog mate with anything, churning out mongrels & inferior puppies with no thought of what has gone into the mix of genetics,

Wolfiefan Thu 02-Jun-16 18:22:56

I have been looking at getting a dog for over a year. I have been in contact with a breeder and hunting for months.
I'm stunned by people who expect to go out and get a dog immediately. A decent breeder will have waiting lists and shouldn't be breeding from their bitches again and again.
I'm really wary of people saying they have a "something poo" or a "cav a wotsit". I don't believe these breeders are after anything more than money and won't have the necessary health tests on the parents.

Shriek Thu 02-Jun-16 19:45:42

how about...

never go see a litter to choose the breed/er? (do that beforehand)
never buy a puppy that you feel sorry for (get yourself a very healthy and pleasant natured dpup you both deserve it)
there are many dodgy practices amongst apparently assured breeders, so do your research long beforehand
the breeder might not have had many litters or have a massive list, this doesn't mean that they are not necessarily excellent at breeding/rearing sound dpups, and there are breeders with long lists that ain't so great too.
what would you expect a breeder to have fed its dpups their first meal? does it matter?

How much inside/outside, does it matter?

How much does the breeder want to know about you?

just some more thoughts...

Shriek Thu 02-Jun-16 19:48:30

I wonder about the reality of buying very ill dpups with long-term health conditions, as yet unseen and invisible when viewing a litter.

resulting in a life-time of pain for ddog and the family emotionally, not to mention the awesome vets bills...

itsbetterthanabox Thu 02-Jun-16 20:25:46

Adopt don't buy.

Hoppinggreen Fri 03-Jun-16 09:06:54

Choose a breeder wth good online reviews, make sure KC Reg, see the pups with mum, make sure they are in a home environment, ask plenty of questions, expect to be asked plenty of questions too.
We did all these things and I pretty sure our pup actually came from a puppy farm

needastrongone Fri 03-Jun-16 11:01:45

I have a skim read, but I don't think anyone has mentioned that you should expect to the grilled before any reputable breeder will deem you worthy of having one of their litter.

Ddog2 comes from working stock, and most of the the litter were pre booked to working homes, including the breeder (reason he was having a litter). We had to jump through hoops to prove we would be able to cope with a working cocker from a line of champions that wouldn't be worked. This included 2 face to face interviews and then bringing our other dog over so they could see how well (or not) trained he was.

Irony is, he's the easiest, gentlest most placid thing in the world, he's hardly need to be trained at all iyswim?!! smile

toboldlygo Fri 03-Jun-16 13:17:03

Darklane makes some good points and the same goes for other disciplines - as well as the show ring there are other places you can see the dogs in person. Agility, working trials, gundog trials, sled dog racing, canicross, local shoots, obedience, Crufts, Discover Dogs etc. Identify the dogs you like, and why, get to know the people that are breeding them, understand their aims and influences and make sure they match what you're looking for in a dog. Expect to have to justify your reasons for choosing that particular breed and to be able to explain how you are going to meet its exercise and training needs.

Agree that the KC Assured Breeder Scheme has limitations but is a reasonable starting point, as is contacting the breed club and asking for recommendations in your area. Health tests can and should be verified online via MyKC. A general health check by a vet is not the same thing - depending on the breed appropriate health testing may involve any combination of eye tests, DNA samples via blood or swab, x-rays, MRI, BOAS scoring etc.

At the risk of upsetting some here I would also go out on a limb and say that you cannot buy a healthy brachycephalic dog so some breeds should perhaps be avoided entirely in their present form.

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