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Buying from a KC breeder and paying £££;£££ its worth it isnt it?

(42 Posts)
catstolemypants Tue 11-Feb-14 14:57:06

We are planning on getting a border terrier later in the year i have spoken to some local KC breeders all lovely want to meet us and have good ground rules before selling pups and also want lifetime contact with us and the pup but and here it comes DH is having trouble getting his head round £550-600 for a puppy i am besotted and don't care so that doesn't help, but i really do think for peace of mind and getting the right dog for us this is the best and only way am i wrong?
For £550 we will get the puppy it will be chipped and vet checked puppy food 12 weeks insurance and puppy pack oh and life time support and advice and also if we cant keep the puppy etc the breeders requires we give it back to her
Thank you in advance for opinions and advice
Oh thing is DH has seen all these dogs on gumtree pets4homes etc for £150 £250

AlpacaLypse Tue 11-Feb-14 15:01:44

That's the going price for a properly bred and raised pedigree puppy.

Some of the dogs advertised on sites like gumtree may be genuine. A great many however will be from a puppy farming background with all the associated problems, quite apart from the issue of giving money to a shyster.

Having said, many breed societies have their own re-homing arm, and several of my clients have dogs who came as puppies or near puppies through these.

Gileswithachainsaw Tue 11-Feb-14 15:07:46

You are not wrong. This is how it's meant to be. It's also handy that you can give it back (although hopefully there will be no need for that)

But good breeders who take proper care and have all the paperwork etc are expensive.

Do not support back yard breeders /puppy farms and gun tree.

catstolemypants Tue 11-Feb-14 15:55:50

I agree with u all whole heartedly I just need as many reasons as possible to make DH see the wheat from the chaff, we are off to a breeder this saturday so DH can see the to be mum and gparents and ask questions I think I will also ask the lady to explain why these other dogs are so cheep

Gileswithachainsaw Tue 11-Feb-14 15:58:29

We want pics of the puppy wink

Floralnomad Tue 11-Feb-14 16:40:33

We were the opposite when we wanted a puppy ,my husband was happy to pay £800+ for a Westie , whereas I was less bothered about the breed and was keen to take on a rescue ( had Battersea dogs growing up) . We ended up with a Patterdale x from Battersea ,he was about 15 weeks old and cost £95 including 4 weeks Petplan insurance , microchip , first vaccinations ,some food , a collar and name tag .The choice doesn't necessarily need to be between a good breeder and gumtree ,there are lots of puppies in rescue .

LadyTurmoil Tue 11-Feb-14 16:52:09

I know you want a Border Terrier but can you resist this?

Kendodd Tue 11-Feb-14 16:56:55

Personally I would get a mongrel from a shelter. But then I love mongrels, especially 'proper' mongrels bred from generations of mongrels, non of your cross breeds. You just don't see them anymore though.

tabulahrasa Tue 11-Feb-14 16:57:50

Getting a well bred puppy fr

Kendodd Tue 11-Feb-14 16:58:16

BTW I have a pure breed dog, descendant of a Crufts champion no less! We only got her though because we couldn't find a mongrel.

tabulahrasa Tue 11-Feb-14 17:01:54

Getting a well bred puppy from a breeder doing everything they can to breed healthy good examples of a breed is well worth paying more money for and may well save you thousands in vet bills later on.

If it was a toss up between a rescue puppy and a good breeder that would be a personal choice based on how set you are on a particular breed - but between a good breeder and someone throwing any old dogs together without the right health checks? No contest at all.

Getting a healthy puppy is not something to try and skimp on.

EvenBetter Wed 12-Feb-14 00:23:48

Kennel club papers mean absolutely nothing except that your dog has been bred from eugenics. It does not mean that the dog is healthy, it does not mean that the breeders have performed any health checks, it doesn't mean the breeders are lovely people genuinely trying to better the health problems all pedigree dogs have/are at extreme risk of.
I'll keep my opinions on dog breeders and buyers out of this, for sake of decency, but a rescue would be the best place to start-the dogs personalities are known and are able to be matched with a suitable owner, rather than a 'blank canvas' puppy where you have no idea of what you'll end up with temperament-wise, or genetic diseases .

Kendodd Wed 12-Feb-14 09:36:28

I was thinking that I should set up a web site breeding mongrels.

The KC breeds deformities into dogs in the shape of breed standards imo.

I would make sure the dogs (on my website) had all the health checks, also I would only breed friendly dogs, and not accept breeds known to be aggressive, not even a little bit snappy. I would let people match dogs together on size nothing to do with being the same breed and hope to end up with a super race of healthy, friendly dogs bred from a wide gene pool. They might be a little ugly though grin

tabulahrasa Wed 12-Feb-14 12:06:47

Good breeders breed for temperament and health as well as well as type.

KC registration alone means nothing, but cheap puppies without it should be avoided - KC registration is cheap, so there's no reason not to do it and a low price reflects that corners were cut.

A good breeder rarely makes money from a litter, they breed to get a dog and easily spend a couple of thousand pounds on health tests, the best stud, vet care, equipment, insurance and quality food. The price of s puppy reflects that.

Kendodd Wed 12-Feb-14 12:43:34

Yes but some KC breed standards are in and of themselves unhealthy for the dog. Bull Dogs' noses for example.

fanoftheinvisibleman Wed 12-Feb-14 13:06:54

I utterly appreciate what you are saying Kendodd with regard to certain breeds and I could never bring myself to encourage the breeding of certain breeds. But I do think people in general get a bit of an unfair battering for wanting a certain breed and like wise I think it would be a crying shame to see lots of breeds (without problems) die out.

I am biased as a BT owner but they are a fantastic breed and in general are hardy little things with a good life span.

HavantGuard Wed 12-Feb-14 13:14:35

There are two sensible options. A pedigree dog from a good KC breeder or a rescue dog from a good place.

A good breeder isn't just KC registered. They're breeding for a purpose; for particular characteristics. They usually also show the breed. They may have a second breed of dog (often similar) but no more and they will be checking you out at least as much as you are checking them out. You should be able to see the mother and the full litter and preferably the father (though not always if they have used a stud dog from another breeder.) They won't be producing frequent litters and will have waiting lists for pups. The parents will be screened and health scored for any known breed issues and a good breeder will be looking to breed from dogs under the average score. The pups themselves will be health checked. The breeder should offer lifetime support and advice and tell you that if you ever end up in a situation where you are looking at rehoming to come to them first.

A good rescue will know the dogs they are rehoming and ask detailed questions about your home, who lives there, who visits, your lifestyle etc. They should home check. They should also offer lifetime support and advice and be looking to find the best match for the dog rather than emptying a kennel space. They will say you should come back to them if you have any problems or need to rehome.

Your DH's option is not an option for anyone who cares about dogs. Pedigree dogs sold for those prices are likely to be the result of puppy farming. The sellers may have bought pups from the farmers to sell on so they can give the semblance of 'home raised' pups. You may find yourself offered 'the last pup in the litter' to cover the fact that they were not actually the breeder. These dogs are not health checked, their parents aren't screened for health issues and no consideration exists except £££. The cost of ending up with a very sick puppy and facing a lifetime of vet bills or opting for euthanasia is huge both financially and emotionally. The mothers are kept in sheds and bred repeatedly until they are either put down or abandoned when they become less fertile. Have a look at the Many Tears rescue to see how many former breeders they are looking to rehome. These adult dogs are usually not housetrained and have never been walked or played with. The 'best' scenario is that you manage to stumble onto a someone who had bred from their own dog because they wanted their DC to see puppies being born/let their bitch have a litter before being neutered hmm. In that case you've only got the health issues for the puppy to consider.

LtEveDallas Wed 12-Feb-14 13:33:27

Why buy when you can rescue?
Why breed when the rescues are full?

How many more dogs need to die whilst breeders are making money out of the reproductive organs of their cash cows?

Border Terrier Welfare

Terrier Rescue

Many Tears 53 Terriers (not borders) sitting in rescue there amongst 184 other dogs - Lots dumped by breeders as soon as they are 'too old' to make money for them.

HavantGuard Wed 12-Feb-14 13:46:46

That's a good question LtEveDallas.

In my case I desperately wanted a particular breed that (thankfully) isn't widely bred. It is a breed that has existed in England for a long time but isn't popular. I have waited for years to have one. There are none in rescue centres. There are regional breed specific rescues that deal with any rehoming needed. The South of England as a whole gets maybe a handful of these a year and they are rightly placed in the best situation for each dog. I spent two years on the waiting list before buying a pup. Now I have a pup I'm more likely to be able to get another of this breed through the rescue in the future as they like to home to those with another of the same breed or recent experience of the same breed. The breeder I bought from shows, runs the area rescue and took an hour on the phone and an hour of us visiting them and their dogs checking us out to be happy to sell to us. That was before the mum was actually pregnant!

I appreciate that for some people my reasons would be inadequate but they were enough for me.

needastrongone Wed 12-Feb-14 13:53:26

Additional things a good breeder might offer, we have managed to find two excellent breeders, but we did do our research too

- pictures and videos of the litter, after you have been vetted and allowed one of their pups.
- ddog1 goes back to his breeder if we go away without him (rare, tbh), so he's back with his mum and grandma and sister. She's happy to have the pup too, mad dog woman!
- back up after the pup goes home, the breeder of our puppy, who is 11 weeks, phoned daily, then twice weekly, now weekly to check all is well.
- breeder1 sends 'letters' from 'mum' asking for updates even now.

Eve - our working cocker puppy came form a litter of pups bred to work in the field, he's a gamekeeper. I think ours and perhaps one more are going to non working homes, but only after assurances that we would provide significant training or do agility or similar. The others were pre booked to working homes, including his. The fees cover the breeding process and to cover the cost of his working dogs for the year, that's it. He has in fact offered to teach DH how to work our springer and the pup if required.

I am sure that you are right, and that we could have rescued dogs with similar traits, and also that there are many many horrible breeding situations out there, but it doesn't suit everybody to go down that route, and not every single person who has a litter, does it for profit.

Or perhaps we were just lucky smile

HavantGuard Wed 12-Feb-14 14:00:32

Oh yes to the pictures. I have them saved and DH and I still look through them and try to work out which one is our furry fiend. Our breeder also has them back for their first grooming (free of charge) and will teach you how to do it.

LtEveDallas Wed 12-Feb-14 14:01:49

Hi Havant,

The only breeding I support is those breeds that are dying out. Those that are on the 'endangered' list. Myself, I would happily have an Otterhound, maybe when we settle down.

Hi needastrongone,

ESSW and CAESSR are full of Springers, Cockers and Working Cockers, lots of which get PTS because a spaniel is not a suitable dog for most families (not all). I have a friend that's part of the huntin' shootin' fishin' crowd. Every single one of his 8 dogs were rescue, and he works them all. He'd never use a breeder either (he has 4 springers, 3 cockers and a lab). My boss has 2 working cockers in her brood, both of whom were dumped as puppies because they were too "busy".

HavantGuard Wed 12-Feb-14 14:29:30

I would love an Otterhound but I didn't feel I would be able to give them the level of exercise and the kind of home they need.

When I'm older and don't need space for DC I want to move to a more rural area and fill the house with dogs. And maybe DH too. Not a silly number but perhaps 4? I have no desire for an Aga or a log burner but I'd get one for the dogs to lay in front of. I'll get an Irish Wolfhound then, when we have the right kind of lifestyle for one then with some land for it to lope around.

LtEveDallas Wed 12-Feb-14 14:51:36

Thats part of my plan Havant. We have a Mutt right now, and did have a Rott for a while (RIP), but this summer when we move we will do more fostering, and maybe look at Oldies (and I do have the Aga for them to lie in front of!). Mutt will fight for the right to be in front of the Log Burner though.

HavantGuard Wed 12-Feb-14 14:59:12

I've sat in a country pub and watched a tiny terrier type dog edge out a Labrador so I can well believe it.

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