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Angry with the vets

(32 Posts)
Kayshields Thu 23-May-13 14:57:02

Ok so basically I am now getting my dog put down, he has viciously attacked a female nursing dog and I am mortified. He was always a bit odd araround other dogs and I decided to get him neutered as recommended by the vets because im20 wweeks pregnant, and I didn't want anything bad happening. He has never attacked anybody or any other animal before this operation, he was just snarly and didn't like the presence of other dogs, but since we paid to get him neutered he has been incredibly baddly behaved and now even attacked a female dog. I told my vet this to wich she replied 30% of dogs that weren't aggressive beforehand become aggressive once neautered, and for another 30% the operation makes no difference grin

Kayshields Thu 23-May-13 14:58:13

Don't you think she should have mentioned that? :/

bamboobutton Thu 23-May-13 15:03:48

Have you seen a dog behaviourist about dog on dog aggression? Having him pts seems a bit drastic if you haven't.

Aggression towards other dogs is no indicator of aggression towards humans either. There are ways dealing with aggression towards other dogs, proper training with an expert for starters.

Having him pts seems way ott to me.

I have a dog with fear aggression. It's a manageable issue. How did your dog get to a nursing bitch? And what damage was done?

miggy Thu 23-May-13 15:09:48

Im sorry about your problems but thats a very odd statistic that I have never heard before

Kayshields Thu 23-May-13 15:10:05

I couldn't afford a dog behaviourist with the costs of this new baby, and im a bit worried of the safety of this baby as he's never really been around children, its been three weeks since hes been neuteted now and I can't even take him for a walk anymore as the second he sees a dog he flips and I can't handle him.

Kayshields Thu 23-May-13 15:12:22

He jumped our front gate wich he has never done before and ran into someone's open door.. he must have seen her, he clung onto one of her breast and wouldn't let go, it tore and it took two men to get him off her.

bamboobutton Thu 23-May-13 15:13:24

I think to get the best advice you'll need to give a bit more info

Breed of dog
Age
From rescue or breeder.

miggy Thu 23-May-13 15:16:30

I am open to being corrected but I think she may have made that up
Most recent research I can find is pretty equivocal and certainly doesnt mention 30pc of dogs becoming aggressive after castration, think people would have noticed!

"Putting ethics aside for the moment, what are the behavioral effects of neutering male dogs? A retrospective study of only 42 dogs studied just that and the results were mixed. The behavior that is best controlled through neutering is roaming. Castration eliminates this behavior in 80 to 90% of dogs. Locking your gate would also accomplish the same thing. Urine marking in the house was controlled in only 50% of dogs and urine marking around or outside of the house where other dogs had marked was not affected at all. Mounting of people or other animals was reduced in 67% of the dogs. Lastly, aggressive behavior was only altered in cases involving inter-dog aggression and declined in 62% of dogs. Territorial, fear-induced aggression, and food aggression were not altered in any dogs 1. In another report dealing with aggressive behavior in dogs, prepubertally castrated male dogs were just as aggressive as noncastrated dogs 2.
There is at least the potential for some behaviors to worsen after castration. Testosterone is known to affect anxiety behaviors; for example, hypogonadal men with lower levels of testosterone are more likely to suffer from anxiety and depression disorders. Treatment with testosterone alleviates these symptoms. Preliminary studies in mice were performed where mice were presented with stressful situations and their ability to process this fear with both contextual (same environment) and cued fear (an audible stimulus preceded a shock) were tested before and after castration. The results were mixed and showed that castration did inhibit contextual fear memory processing, supporting the fact that the processing of contextual fear memory within the hippocampus area of the brain is testosterone dependent. It is established that men tend to develop post-traumatic stress disrorder less frequently and of a less severe nature than women due to this inhibition of contextual fear memory inhibition3.
Would it not be reasonable to conclude that it is at least possible that neutering dogs could increase fear behaviors through inhibition of the dog’s ability to explore its environment and to process and/or extinguish fear memories correctly? Renowned behaviorist Parvene Farhoody looked at this possibility in her Masters thesis at Hunter College in 2010. The study was based upon a 101 question survey called the Canine Behavior and Research Questionnaire (C-BARQ) to collect information on 7 different behavioral characteristics for over 10,000 dogs. Their data showed that neutered dogs were more aggressive, fearful, excitable and less trainable than intact dogs 4. These data were not peer-reviewed or published, but it is my understanding that they are continuing work in this field and that a larger study’s data is currently being compiled and will be submitted for review and publication. A similar C-BARQ questionnaire’s data involving a sample of over 6000 dogs was compiled and presented to the Third International Symposium on Non-Surgical Contraceptive Methods for Pet Population Control and showed neutering to worsen behaviors including: dog-directed fear aggression (breed dependent), begging for food, fear behavior and sensitivity to handling, aggression towards people and other dogs, decreased energy, excessive barking, and rolling in and eating feces5."

Kormachameleon Thu 23-May-13 15:20:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PeachActiviaMinge Thu 23-May-13 15:20:40

Excellent reaction don't train don't rehome just kill it. I hope you realize that you should never be allowed to own another animal as you obviously can't be bothered to even make an attempt at being a worthy owner. angry

Kayshields Thu 23-May-13 15:22:48

He is a Staffordshire bull terrier and three years old, hes never been interested in mounting anything human or dog, hes never been a bad dog ie, peeing/pooing in the house, being aggressive with his food or toys, being nasty to strangers.. he was lovely :/ I feel like kicking myself in the shinn for getting him neutered.

Kormachameleon Thu 23-May-13 15:32:05

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Iseeall Thu 23-May-13 15:33:22

What about seeing another vet for a second opinion. You are sad for your dog and not happy with the advice from your current vet. I would ring around a few vets and ask if the have a vet that has an interest in behaviour and neutering and the aftermath that you are going through.
Don't put you dog to sleep without speaking to another vet, you will regret it, you said yourself he has always been a lovely dog until now.

bamboobutton Thu 23-May-13 15:34:35

Staffies are notorious for dog aggression.

How long have you had him?

Where did you get him?

If you've had him from a puppy what training and socialising did you do?

I'm betting this is rescue dog bought on a whim.

idirdog Thu 23-May-13 18:42:14

Bloody hell the misinformation on this thread is scary shock

IF your dog is showing aggression since being castrated then it most likely be due to fear. Testosterone level will drop and dogs can respond by being more fearful.

However if it is fear then the dogs behaviour can be changed.

Another thing to consider is that 3 weeks after being castrated his hormones will not have settled down, so things may change if you handle this situation carefully.

Dog reactive dogs will not automatically become human reactive so it is unlikely that your childern will be at risk if they treat him with respect.

Staffies ARE NOT notorious for being dog aggressive angry that is just incorrect.

Being cross with your vet is a little extreme it is your dog - you do the research!

Right how to deal with this a one of session with a behaviourist will probably be cheaper than having him put down anyway. They will give you advice on how to go forward with this and ensure that your dogs behaviour is safely managed and corrected.

Contact apdt or apbc or pet professional Guild

This can be sorted

miggy Fri 24-May-13 08:24:14

idirdog-Staffies are notorious for being (at least percieved to be) dog aggressive, even the Dogs trust mention it in their Staffie rehoming leaflet.
I'm not debating whether they are or not but certainly the reputation is out there.
I think a lot of owners I have met do have dog agression issues if the Staffie has not been well socialised at an early age (and there are shed loads of dodgy staffie breeders out there), the other issue is that if they do go for another dog, they tend to clamp on and do a lot of damage thus making the attack more reportable,rather than say a collie who might leap in, nip and leap out.

Completely agree with you otherwise.

bamboobutton Fri 24-May-13 08:40:10

We are going to be getting a staffie in the near future and nearly every book/website i have done breed research on says "doesn't like other dogs" "socialise socialise socialise"

so yeah, they are notorious for dog aggression if not properly socialised.

ipswitch Fri 24-May-13 09:01:41

Terrible that you are considering having a healthy young dog PTS. I am really shocked and sad by this. Poor dog.

Can you not offer the dog to a rehoming centre or a charity that will look after him or train him untill he is ready to be rehomed.

My lovely vet would not PTS an animal on an owners whim, but would try and help me and do the best for the aminal.

LtEveDallas Fri 24-May-13 09:08:21

but certainly the reputation is out there

DEED not BREED.

I think a lot of owners I have met do have dog agression issues if the Staffie has not been well socialised at an early age

Rewrite that sentence to read "I think a lot of owners do have dog agression issues if EVERY SINGLE DOG BREED IN THE WORLD has not been well socialised at an early age"

lurcherlover Fri 24-May-13 09:15:34

Staffirs certainly are notorious for being dog-aggressive - its in their heritage, as their ancestors were dogs bred for fighting. Reputable breeders will usually recommend that they are the only dog in the house for that reason. However, the breed standard states that they should be loving towards people, children in particular. Dog-aggression in no way relates to people-aggression.

This dog needs training and socialisation, not killing because you can't be bothered to do either of those. Don't take it to a rescue either, they're overrun with staffs and chances are it'll just be killed there as well.

lurcherlover Fri 24-May-13 09:18:44

LtEve - I agree that no dog should be judged without knowing individual circs, but the problem with "deed not breed" is that dogs DO have breed traits. It's not coincidence that collie pups try to round up chickens or that terriers go mad for small furry things. All dogs need training and socialisation of course, but we must also remember what they were originally bred to do.

idirdog Fri 24-May-13 09:20:07

Staffies are notorious for being (at least percieved to be) dog aggressive, even the Dogs trust mention it in their Staffie rehoming leaflet.

The leaflet from Dogs Trust talks about smiling Staffies, what great pets they make, it does mention that dogs that have been trained to fight may have dog aggression issues which their behaviourists will help with.

The leaflet is two pages of positives and what good pets Staffies make and one paragraph on an issues that may occur due to training by humans.

Staffies as a breed are no more likely to be dog aggressive than any other dog.

link to dogs trust staffie leaflet

As mentioned in the leaflet Staffies are the only dog highly recommended to have if you have children.

Frettchen Fri 24-May-13 10:09:28

Where abouts are you?

It sounds to me like the best option for you would be to rehome the dog to a person/organisation who would be willing to put in the time and money to get the dog trained and socialised.

As much as I would dearly love to flame you about not training your dog and making the complete wrong decision about having him be put down, I do recognise that you've had a difficult time of it, and you're putting your baby first right now, which I can't fault you for.

So yeah - let us know roughly where you are, and then if anyone knows anyone nearby with Staffie-experience or dog behavioural experience who could take him on, we can look to getting a positive outcome here.

And for pity's sake don't get another dog unless you've got the time, money, energy to spend training and socialising it.

Frettchen Fri 24-May-13 10:19:20

Oh, and YABVVVVU for blaming the vets. This is not the vets fault, and it sounds highly unlikely the castration caused the increased aggression; it's more likely the continued lack of training was the root of that.

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