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Please talk me out of returning my rescue dog (sorry, long)

27 replies

gymmummy64 · 16/12/2012 13:34

We?ve had him for 3 months now. He?s affectionate, he?s friendly, we really do love him to bits.

However, he?s a serial absconder with very patchy recall and no problem with huge distances between him and me or taking off for a couple of hours if he gets a chance. After several disasters he?s now always on a (long) lead. He has a very high prey drive and will chase anything which compounds the problem. We are currently working through all the steps in Pippa Mattinson?s book Total Recall. It will be a long process but I?m determined. I keep telling myself that if dogs can be trained to drive cars then I can get my dog to do recall.

The rescue said he was cat friendly which is absolutely not the case. Over the 3 months we?ve had him, we?ve given over an entire bedroom and more recently the bathroom so that we could keep him away from the cat. We are just beginning to make some progress and I can just begin to imagine the two of them living together at some point. Most of our visitors think we are completely mad to have gone to the lengths we have but it does seem to be paying off.

He wasn?t well socialised when we got him and following two attacks by off lead dogs, became very snippy and snappy with just about every dog he met. I became terrified of unknown off lead dogs approaching him and still am. We always walk in the same places because of this and he is slowly building up good relations with a number of other dogs and I am a little less nervous.

We also started flyball which we all enjoy and he has taken to well.
However, at flyball this morning I was already nervous that he would take a chunk out of the smaller dogs who wanted to play and had been keeping him away from them as he does not like playing and does not like being nagged at to play. He then had major issues with a fear aggressive dog resulting in quite a fight before we could separate them. The lovely trainer told me that my dog was being very dominant, I was allowing him to mark which I shouldn?t and my dog?s whole body language changed when I was holding him. I was told I was making everything worse.

My issue is this. I can be patient and cope with the rubbish recall, the cat and the basic socialisation though as a first time owner I?m not entirely sure this is what I signed up for ? I do feel completely unqualified to deal with all these issues. However, I?ll try. What I think I am completely the wrong person to deal with is the aggression/dominance bit. Let?s face it, I hadn?t even noticed it. I can?t just stop being nervous when he?s around other dogs and if my nerves are making him worse then I don?t know where we go from here. It just seems like every single thing is an issue and a battle and this dominance thing is feeling like the final straw. If it takes me being confident to deal with it, then it?s not going to happen. In three months I have become highly wary of dogs I don?t know and feel far less confident than I did at the beginning.

With every one of the many set backs so far I?ve managed to re-focus and remotivate myself. I just don?t seem to be able to do it this time - according to the trainer I haven?t even leaned to hold a lead correctly, which must be pretty poor for 3 months worth of dog ownership! I am really beginning to feel he?d be better off with someone else, he?s a lovely dog in so many ways and deserves to be really happy. Would I actually be doing the best for him by giving him the chance of a better owner?

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shoutymcshoutsmum · 16/12/2012 14:01

You sound like an amazing owner who doesn't have an easy dog. The experts will hopefully come along soon and advise how to continue but I think you sound like you are making a huge effort to be a forever home for this dog. I have had a dog a year, I wouldn't know how to deal with any of that stuff either. Don't be too hard on yourself.

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paddythepooch · 16/12/2012 15:38

Hi, I'm not an expert but I do know to steer well away of anyone talking about dominance nonsense. This is a totally out of date form of training without any base in sound science. So ignore them.

You don't say what type of dog yours is - it sounds like a sighthound. I would bet it had a bit of saluki in there too. I would suggest you have a look on here www.apdt.co.uk/dog-owners/choosing-a-trainer for a suitable training class perhaps supplement that by a behaviourist. The classes will help build you and your dog's confidence.

It sounds like you are really well focussed and willing to learn - you just need the right kind of support. We all have to learn sometimes and TBH I would never go near that trainer again.

Your rescue may have some useful contacts too - but if they start talking about dominance - just walk away. With a reactive dog it could just make things worse rather than better.

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gymmummy64 · 16/12/2012 15:50

I thought it was dogs wanting to be dominant over people that was discredited? Not dogs wanting to be dominant over other dogs which was what the flyball trainer was referring to. If dog on dog dominance is no longer accepted as a concept then I'm even more at sea than I thought on what the aggression and barking and anti-social behaviour was this morning

My dog is a retriever collie cross apparently. I reckon there's lurcher-ey something in there as well. He fancies himself as both sight hound and scent hound I think but isn't actually very good at either. Doesn't stop him being highly enthusiastic and committed though!

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YulePutTatOnMyChristmasTree · 16/12/2012 16:33

I have a dog aggressive dog. I always put her on lead if there are other dogs about. It's taken me 20 years to learn to spot the body language of a dog that is going to attack!! I am lucky in that my dog has a good recall.

It's really hard especially at an activity like fly ball when the dogs are hyped up even more than usual. My dog goes to agility and she will snap at things near her just in excitement.
I am, like you nervous around other dogs. But my dog is slightly better since I have got another dog who is completely unreactive to dogs.
I suggest you watch your dog for changes in body language. It's the stiff posture and the ears that change, my dog puts her ears back but her tail goes up and sometimes she even wags it really slowly. if you can learn to anticipate trouble then you can distract you dog or simply turn and walk away.
My dog is nearly 7. I don't think she will ever change but I have learnt to manage it. If a situation is making you nervous, your dog will pick up on it so walk away or do something to relieve the tension.

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ConeyIslandBaby · 16/12/2012 16:47

Also not an expert but I do have a nervous dog and had to go back to basics for a bit. I agree with Paddy, ignore the trainer, imo talking absolute rubbish. And telling you you're not holding the lead properly? Undermining your confidence, what utter crap.

Most aggression in dogs stems from fear. I read this book www.amazon.co.uk/Talking-Terms-Dogs-Calming-Signals/dp/1929242360/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355674452&sr=1-1&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21 which opened my eyes to what my dog was trying to communicate to me and other dogs.

If you are in situations that you and/or your dog are finding uncomfortable, don't put yourself in them (flyball training?) until you have built up trust in each other and are more relaxed. Break the cycle.

A good behaviourist will help you work through the issues with fear aggression / socialisation. Make sure you choose someone that practices positive reinforcement methods and does NOT talk about dominance!!

It's only been 3 months - give yourself a break. You sound like you're doing a great job!

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LoveDogs · 16/12/2012 17:14

As everyone else has said don't be to hard on yourself, your trying your best!
We got our dog at 8 weeks, we think she was taken away from her mum too early and when we went to pick her up she was getting picked on by all 7 of her brothers, we had a horrendous time with her she ran after cars, escaped from the park to run after cars, rubbish at recall, aggressive towards us, etc, etc. But I was determined not to give up on her! It took a long time, but we got there in the end.
She's 3 now and the best dog ever and we all love her to pieces! (it hasn't taken 3 years, don't worry!)

You can do it!

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gymmummy64 · 16/12/2012 17:49

Well dominance theories aside, I have been told by many people that hauling my dog away when I meet another dog is the wrong thing to do and reinforces the snappy behaviour as I'm telling my dog there is something to be worried about (ie, I'm making him worse as the trainer said this morning). However, I think I have a responsibility not to allow my dog to snap at a completely blameless dog who only wants to touch noses and I also have a responsibility to try and keep my dog from being mauled by another dog. I can't do either of these things if he is on the opposite end of a long lead! So of course I haul him in when we meet other dogs. I can see that this may be making his behaviour worse, but I'm confused as to what is the viable alternative. Walking in the opposite direction is not always possible in busy W London - there are often dogs in all directions!

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gymmummy64 · 16/12/2012 18:07

Also, so if this morning's excessive marking of the area and staring contests and in-your-face barking and snapping isn't my dog wanting to be dominant over the other dogs there (5 I think, all calm and blameless bar one), what is it? Just plain aggression? Nervousness? Over-excitedness?

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Whippoorwhill · 16/12/2012 18:27

Gymmummy, I sure one of the more knowledgable members will be along soon but google Behaviour Adjustment Training (BAT). It is a safe and comfortable way of helping reactive dogs to get comfortable with other dogs and uses a dog's natural desire to avoid the situation by moving away. I've been using some of the principals with my very nervous puppy, in the hope that she will become more confidant and not become fear aggressive. So far it is working really well.

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Floralnomad · 16/12/2012 18:32

Perhaps you should stop the fly all for a bit and instead get a dog behaviourist to give you some advice. With regards to the recall issues, my terrier has selective hearing and a strong prey drive and I will only let him off lead in particular places that I know are safe for him like our local field and the beach ,if I was to let him off in a wood I'd never see him again. Also ,shame on the rescue for saying he was good with cats ,that's a terrible mistake to make and could have had dire consequences ! Persevere if you can you sound like just the right owner for your dog.

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Cuebill · 16/12/2012 19:20

gymmummy6 you are doing brilliantly Smile

Having a dog is just like having babies - everyone is an expert Smile.

I can say without question that your dog is not being dominant at all. Dominant dogs do not need to show aggression, they are the dogs that just need to turn their head, of sniff the ground and the other dogs now exactly what they mean.

You have a reactive dog (not aggressive) that is unsure of how to communicate with other dogs, he has learnt that by being lungy and barking the dog will go away. He actually is a very clever dog, "I bark they go - job done!"

Generally dogs that chase can also be stressed dogs, running and chasing is a great adrenalin release and makes the dog feels fantastic so you will probably feel that as time goes on the chase instinct may get a bit better.


Get clicker training! That is how the dogs learnt to drive a car and you are correct if they can do that you can easily help your boy. APDT trainers would be able to help you and are based in many areas.

I can promise you that your boy would NOT be happier in another home it sounds to me that he has landed on his feet with a very caring, patient and willing to learn owner - what more could a dog need.

BAT is the way to go along with looking at Kikopup videos and contacting an APDT trainer. (Maybe getting a thick skin may help too you will get people telling you exactly what is right for your dog even though you live with him 24/7 - ignore them Grin)

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gymmummy64 · 16/12/2012 19:20

Believe me floralnomad the consequences were pretty dire for a while - cat took off for a month and came back a skeleton and covered in ticks. Dog has been absolutely obsessive about her and we have lived in a fortress for weeks. I can't quite believe we have now arrived at the point where they are in the same house largely without barricades. Next challenges are the cat moving around the house and stopping her leaving again.

I wasn't trying to be a competitive parent with the flyball, honest! Until this morning it seemed like the one success amidst a catalogue of failures! My aim in going was to provide the dog with a focussed activity which helped him bond with me, made me more 'exciting' and made him choose to stay involved whilst off lead rather than leg it over the fence. All things that are meant to be good for dodgy recall. It could have been any activity really, though having said that he seems rather good at it and I've been really proud of him. Far more to the point though, he hasn't legged it once. It also gave me a chance to be around people with lots of experience of dogs, plus other newbie owners which I've found very helpful and confidence boosting. Until this morning, it was all good and one of the few places where I truly relaxed with my dog and enjoyed him. The trainer who made the comments is genius with dogs and it's a joy to watch him in action and see the way dogs respond to him. It's very hard to believe his approach is fundamentally flawed.

My dog is booked in for a training course in January, all based on positive methods. However, I'm getting worried that we're going to have all the same issues with other dogs which is going to take the focus off the training. However, I guess he can't be the only dog in the world with these issues so hopefully they can help me deal with it.

If my dog hadn't bonded with me I really think I might give him the chance of a different, much more experienced owner. I do think he'd benefit. However, he is very bonded with me and in reality I don't think i could do it. I just need to add this other dog issue to the 'to fix' list and soldier on!

Thank you so much for all your kind words and advice, I really needed it!

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gymmummy64 · 16/12/2012 19:40

omg cuebill your message came in as I was composing my essay above. It's got me in tears sitting here. You have described my dog absolutely perfectly I think, the description fits my observations and his history much better than that of an aggressive 'dominant' dog.

I totally agree with your comparison about babies and I would add another one - everyone tells you about what hard work a new dog will be and I was prepared for that, just like with the kids. What no one seems to tell you about babies or dogs is the level of sheer emotion involved - that's what's exhausting. And rewarding too though! thank you x

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AndARedwingInAPearTree · 16/12/2012 19:42

Lovely encouraging post from Cuebill and I think she is absolutely right, you are doing brilliantly.

Leaving the dominance debate aside (tho I agree with Cuebill), a good trainer is a good teacher of people as well as dogs, and good teachers are the ones that are encouraging and structure things so people can learn - not so that they feel terrible and disheartened. So I don't think that trainer can be very good.

You are doing really really well, have made excellent progress (especially with the cat), and unfortunately these things take time. Building a solid recall is hard work - just think how many people you see out and about who have not managed it but let their dogs loose anyway. I am impressed that you are such a dedicated owner - the dog is lucky to have you :)

Another book you might find helpful is 'click to calm' as it includes info on teaching your dog calming signals. This helps your own dog, but it also helps any other over-excited dogs in the vicinity.

Another trick that I find useful if using treats to distract a dog from other dogs going by, is to drop the treat on the floor. This way it takes longer for the dog to get it (distracts them for longer) and also makes the dog sniff the ground looking for it, which in itself is a calming signal. (Only do this when you have good enough treats that you know the dog will want to get it, otherwise you risk losing their attention when you drop the treat).

Returning to the dominance thing - it is true that some people like Roger Abrantes and Marc Bekoff have written recently about how dominance is not a myth. The thing is, they are using the word very differently from the way it is used by most ordinary people and unfortunately many dog trainers. They are referring to specific aspects of interactions. I wonder how many non-scientists reading them interpret it as 'so Cesar Millan is right after all' which is not what they mean (definitely not for Bekoff since he has written against Millan several times). But that's an aside.

Keep up the good work, gymmummy!

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PartridgeInASpicyPearTree · 16/12/2012 20:48

Hi Gymmummy. I think Cuebill and Redwing have given some great advice but I'm just posting to offer you big bucketfuls of sympathy and encouragement. Almost a year ago we adopted a rescue dog "suitable for first time owners". Just like you it turned out that she actually has "issues" and I can totally understand what you are going through. Your posts show a fantastic attitude and so much commitment to and compassion for this dog, please don't think that he would be better elsewhere. The reality is there aren't enough homes with the time and exact experience to help each troubled dog and their specific set of problems. With your willingness to learn and get stuck in you will make a fantastic owner. But it's also something of a catch 22 - you are the right owner for this dog because you care so much, but, as you say, caring so much is what makes it hard!

By way of encouragement on recall, initially SpicyDog's first instinct was to run as far away from us as possible. She was almost the opposite of your dog, uncomfortable with people but desperate to get to any other dog in the vicinity as they made her feel safe. So she was exclusively on lead for months, but we trained and trained and trained and built our bond and she is now extremely reliable off lead. Lots of times I didn't think we would get there, but we did. All this time I was made to feel bad by various people for not letting her run free, when in fact it was for her own safety, so please trust in your own judgement about when it is okay for him to come off lead.

Also, when we had had SpicyDog about a month or two a locum vet made me feel terrible and to blame in a similar way to your trainer. Apparently she wasn't terrified of the vet and unwilling to take his treat or let him touch her because she'd been locked in a shed alone to breed for the first three years of her life and manhandled. No, it was because I wasn't showing her I was the boss and that was making her insecure Hmm I can laugh about it now and see what nonsense it was but I was inconsolable by the time I got home from that appointment and had similar concerns that I was the wrong owner and it would be kinder to give her back. Eventually I learnt to follow my instincts - just because someone is more experienced with dogs generally doesn't mean they are right or know your dog best. For example you knew in your gut that Cuebill has explained his behaviour much better than the flyball trainer.

Apologies for waffling on about us but there have been times I would have really appreciated hearing from someone who had been through similar. I won't pretend it has been easy or all plain sailing but we have made so much progress over the last year. We are still working on and managing her rather severe noise phobia, but no one else would have been able to wave a magic wand and fix it, just like no one can do that for your dog. You are just as able to help him as anyone else with the right advice and assistance! If you could arrange a session, even just one, with a behaviourist to walk with you and explain the body language around other dogs and how to respond, in my experience this would really help your confidence. I would also consider taking a break from flyball until your dog is a bit more settled with you for two reasons 1) being around someone that knocks your confidence in respect of your interaction with your dog will negatively affect your ability to deal with the issues and 2) as your dog with his interactions with other dogs, it's quite a lot for him to deal with at a time when his system is still pretty loaded with stress from rehoming. But you know best so if that doesn't feel right, ignore it! I only say it because on a personal level I did, with the best intentions, push my dog a little too quickly to do certain things and it probably slowed our progress.

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gymmummy64 · 16/12/2012 22:26

kids in bed finally so I have some proper time. oh wow I feel like I've won an Oscar with all these people to thank (and strangely, oscar is the name of my dog..)

redwing thank you! I seem to have a single sense dog in that he can?t really process more than one sense at once! The cat is a good example ? I have spent hours in the bathroom with a slavering dog staring at the cat on a shelf. I have tucked liver (BIG treat) under his lip in this mode and he has not even noticed it was there and we are talking a dog who is utterly completely obsessed with food and will drag me halfway across a park for a mouldy breadcrust. I?ve not tried dealing with other dogs and treats ? having read all this tonight I?ve perhaps got a more accurate idea of what I?m dealing with and need to work out how to go forward. I guess like everything else though it will be slow and steady and I know food is my friend!

spicey what can I say? I can only hope in a year?s time i will be able to send a newbie owner a message as lovely and supportive and informative and understanding and relevant as yours. Thank you so much.

Yule , I had actually thought of another dog (no, don?t worry, I won?t!) and it?s interesting to hear what you say. I think I watch my dog the whole time and know him intimately, but I have to admit most of these doggy signals do seem to pass me by. Despite 3 intensive months, I am still not attuned. Hopefully I can beat 20 years though!

Thank you coneyy, paddy and shouty you all say to give myself a break. Lovely gymdog is lying close by, crashed out and I love him to bits. I think you?re absolutely right and thank you very much!

I?m feeling so much better I?ve even uploaded some photos of the errant hound and created a profile. Thank you so much everyone

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daisydoodoo · 16/12/2012 22:43

Watching with interest as you could be describing my dog.he's a Labrador pointer cross rescue. We got him when he was 16 weeks old from a rescue centre.

We have a cairn terrier who is fab she's about 6 months older than him and is friendly bouncy loves to play with other dogs but due to his behaviour when out she doesn't often get to do this anymore.

They are both 5 now. The lab just doesn't like other dogs he growls and snarls and is embarrassing. He's gone from a lovely puppy to a very hard work dog :-( which is awful as at home he's the softest soppiest thing going.

Good luck with your boy I hope things improve for you.

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TwoFacedCows · 16/12/2012 22:59

i totally agree with cuebill. I have a VERY dominant dog, the only time we have problems is if we come across another very dominate dog. in fact our friends dog is very insecure and nervous and spends the whole time growling and snarling at my boy and my boy will just ignore him because he just isn't a threat to his dominance, he is just nervous.

that said we have a lot of staffy/bull crosses in my area and they are quite dominant and i worry about a fight with my boy, but not sure how to stop him being a sod!

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Lala29 · 16/12/2012 23:21

Just wanted to give you some encouragement. We got our dog from a rescue 6 years ago now. She was around 5 and a staffie. She turned out to be aggressive towards other dogs, chased cats and we obviously weren't going to let her off the lead. We invested in an extra long training line ( I think police dogs use them, they are about 10m). Messy, but gave her a chance to run around. We talk special treats (like cheese or ham or smth else yummy she wouldn't normally get) on EVERY walk. Whenever we saw a dog approaching I would ensure she saw it, then start giving her loads of treats. I didn't drag her in the opposite direction, but put her on a short lead to the side, so the other dog could pass and keep praising mine and giving her treats. Calm, happy voice. This really worked. She is now (and has been for years) absolutely fine with all dogs (although now always runs to us as soon as she sees another dog for her treats!)

With cats, we don't have them, but parents in law do. Initially it was a war zone you described. But with patience, treats and praise, they all eventually slept and ate and coexisted happily on the same space. She would still chase cats outside though.

Please ignore people who tell you you are holding the lead wrong! I mean, really?! Sounds like you are doing a brilliant job and your dog is very lucky to have found you. Please don't give up yet!

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TwoFacedCows · 16/12/2012 23:42

IF you love him OP, you will do it. Some how it will all work out. i have two rescues and they can be hard work. Good luck, i hope it goes ok.

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LadyTurmoil · 17/12/2012 00:58

What wonderful messages of support! You sound so dedicated and a wonderful owner, I can't add anything but just want to wish you the best of luck.

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Jingleallthejay · 17/12/2012 16:27

My dog is a rescue and he is reactive and has other issues we have only had him nearly 3 months and we are working through them can you go to the rescue and see if they can put you in touch with a behaviourist ? trainers are fab at training as we were told but not so great at the behaviour problems you sound a responsible owner and reallt love him then dont send him back see if you can see a behaviourist , we went with newdog last week it it gave us such a lot of confidence with him ,

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Jingleallthejay · 17/12/2012 16:27

oh we were also told it can take at least 6 months to train a dog ,

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gymmummy64 · 18/12/2012 17:06

Gosh this dominant dog thing is interesting. I'm beginning to understand my dog's behaviour a lot better now thanks to many of these posts and some more reading. I'm sure he's inexperienced, nervous and in bark-first-ask-questions-later mode rather than anything else. I think seeing the soppy dog you cuddle up with on the sofa in full teeth-bared mode can be quite a shock though, it certainly was for me.

I loved reading your success story lala29, I do hope I can post one of my own one day!

thank you again everyone for all your wonderful support and advice, it is hugely appreciated. Thanks

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D0oinMeCleanin · 18/12/2012 17:24

I have had a fear aggressive dog, he is mainly fine now. It took a lot of work and patience but we got there in the end.

I only have problems now when we meet another reactive dog, something which I am going to be working on this week with the help of Kikopup and her how to stop barking/lunging on the lead videos, however if you are having problems with all/most dogs BAT would be a better place for you to start.

My Dad has a dominant dog, I've only seen him in a fight once, normally he just looks at the other dogs and they do what he wants.

I've met "experts" too, when Whippy was going through a fear period. Apparently I should have forced her to greet other dogs and smacked her nose if she growled or reacted Hmm I was more tempted to smack him on the nose Grin

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