Letter from dog warden today re. Excessive noise. Mortified.(48 Posts)
My fifteen year old lurcher has an outside kennel all warm and snug, she has the run of the garden whilst we are out at work most of the day,
She wears 3 coats, and i know she stays warm and dry,
Basically she is outside when we are out because she needs wees and poos quite often in her old age, and needs access to the garden.
We have never had a problem with her woofing while we are out,
We have a year old shitz zhu too who is also with her, and since we have had her, she annoys the lurcher at times, by trying to get her to play nudging, her, jumping etc..
And the old lurchers response to this is really loud woofing.
Which entertains the little, hence more woofing until they get fed up,
Well they must be annoying the neighbours, we got a letter, and now we are facing the prospect of keeping two dogs cooped up indoors for long periods, when they used to the run of the garden, and one is elderly and needs to go....
Nightmare. Any ideas ???
P.s. spoke to a few neighbours.
Basic feedback i got was, yes hear them woofing at times, but not for long.
Spoke to dog warden who said the complainer wasnt sure what house the noise was coming from ! The warden heard a dog woofing in the background and said it sounded like a lab not a lurcher, but to be fair its got to be hard to distinguish over the phone !
When we explained we had lived at same address with dogs for ten years without complaint, dog warden was impressed with that and said she had asked the complainer to write a log of noise over 3 months and post it to her.
Dog walker started first week in jan
Coming in each week day, dogs having 45 min run each day with her, and usual evening walk with us and additional morning wizz round the block.
Have been leaving them in house remainder of time, which i think is a shame as i think it be loads more entertaining for them having run of the garden, yes even in this weather, because as pointed out before,
Elderly lurcher wears several coats, has cosy kennel and and every time i feel under the coats and touch her tummy, its really warm,
With correct things in place, outside is preferable i think, when we are not at home, but .....
Leaving them in, due to neighbour,
Thanks for all your comments.
Scuttle - I don't think I said that you said it was cruel - some posts were impyling that it was, and I did say that putting a dog outside when it isn't used to it is not on. I have a TB and last year he lived out, fully clipped out with proper rugging, food and shelter and was a much happier horse for it - more laid back, fitter and generally easier to handle. This year due to our house circumstances he is in at night and out during the day and he is hating it (and me with him). Grumpy, tricky to ride and foul in the stable just for starters. He goes in at 8pm, out at 7am and is ridden minimum 4 days a week but he is still so different from last year. Outside they can move about to keep warm, stuck in a stable they are vulnerable to drafts and can't keep themselves moving. My vet has always said under rather than over rug when outside - they can regulate their temperature much that way.
The poster has specifically said that her dog has several coats on, is in a draught proof and water tight kennel, has access to the outside if it wants it and I am assuming it is well fed. It may not be ideal (and obviously isn't if the barking is disturbing people) and I am not advocating that every dog gets chucked outside, nor that one size fits all, just that in this case, welfare wise I don't think it's as bad some people seem to think.
Anyway, what I've just said is irrelevant as they've been moved indoors!
Frosty, nowhere did I say in my post that I think it is cruel to keep all dogs in an outdoor kennel. Using your equine analogy, which is a good one, a Welsh Mountain pony will almost certainly be happier being outside in the winter and as you say grows a wonderful thick coat. However, would you be happy if this was a veteran thoroughbred? Say I had a 25 year old ex racehorse how would you feel then? This is an elderly lurcher. Lurchers are any dog which is a greyhound cross, so by definition will have a body fat percentage well below the norm for other dogs. This dog will, as it ages, lose the ability to regulate its temperature so well, and will have a very low percentage of body fat and very possibly a very thin coat and thin skin. I do a lot of voluntary work with sighthound charities and no reputable charity will home where a sighthound is going to be kept outside, especially one so old. You might remember the 2010 John Lewis Xmas advert - it was rightly criticised by many animal welfare organisations for showing what appeared to be a deerhound lurcher in an outdoor kennel during snow. However, one of my closest friends is a farmer, has Border collies and they live in the barn very happily for most of the year - no welfare issues with that at all, since their coat and physiology is different. It has nothing to do with being pampered and everything to do with basic animal welfare.
If you know which neighbour made the complaint it may be worth popping a note in the door to let them know you've made some changes....
I don't think keeping a dog outside in a kennel is cruel at all, as long as they are used to it - yes, putting an inside dog outside suddenly isn't on, but otherwise with the provisions you've made it they would be fine. I think we forget the origins of dogs - they are bred to live outside, and not be indoor pampered pets.
I have 2 horses and am constantly being asked why the small one doesn't wear a rug - he's a Welsh Mountain pony with a brilliant coat of his own, he's used to being outside, he has access to shelter and extra feed on the rare occasions it's needed - and how cruel I am not to keep him in a nice warm stable! We project so many of our own feelings on to our animals we can sometimes forget they are a damn sight tougher than us. Our cats are out every night, they can sleep in the porch if they want with a fleece blanket in a box, but don't choose to as far as I know. I've had people telling me I'm cruel for that too.....
What a shame. I feel for you having all the people moaning at you for the time you are away. Most people work similar hours and dogs manage fine. All I can suggest is a different kennel and run for the pup so it can't get to the older dog. That way they can still both be outside (where I believe dogs should be in the day when people are working) enjoying fresh air watching world go by.
If they are out all year round they don't feel cold aas long as they have a draft free shelter.
Also set up a video camera for when you are working to see what really goes on.
Sounds great,glad you have got things sorted. Hope you have a good christmas.
Progress report ;
Got up super early,
Dogs had Brek
Walkies in pitch black and rain !
Settled them together in kitchen with toys and cardboard box sealed with treats in for puppy to wrestle with
Came home no accidents cardboard box destroyed , treats ate,
Spoke to dog walker today she will start in new year
Walkies in a bit
Weekend phew ! Feel like I can sort this out now !
I was on the other side of this, with neighbours whose dog barked incessantly every second they were out. We did the normal, neighbourly thing of going round and saying 'excuse me, I think there's a problem...' rather than calling the dog warden. They had no idea the dog barked constantly while they were out, obviously because they weren't there to know. I think you may be underestimating how bad this really is and how much noise your dogs are making (purely from my own experience). It isn't just that the noise is annoying, every time I heard barking I was aware that a dog was distressed, it's horrible to be experiencing that 6 or 7 hours a day and knowing there's nothing you can do about it.
Getting a dog walker in might be a good start but I think daycare is a better option. Have you considered just sending the younger dog?
Yes, will leave lurcher in kitchen, washable floors,
Then walkies now,
Yes, lots of toys, could do better with rotating them for interest sake.
I expect the outside noises are part of the problem. I know my dogs would bark at people/cats etc if left outside.
Can the lurcher stay in the kitchen (washable floors) and if the shitz zhu is bothering her then keep her in another room?
If they are inside maybe you could set up a video recorder/webcam to see what they are doing. I did this when my golden was a pup and was getting used to being left to see how she settled.
Lastly, do they have anything to entertain them selves, toys/kongs?
Yes, hates the meds !
Grits teeth !!
Earns self a markie though !
We have the same coats there lovely aren't they, we have exactly they same with our old girl and she's also on meds, even though she hates them.
Ours does have a couple of coats, my favourite is the fleece one that covers tummy and does up with velcro along the back, really snug, and that goes under a more gortex quilted one.
She often chooses to be outside when she could be in, and i often go out try and tempt her in with a gravy bone, touch her tummy, check under the coats, feel her bony long legs that i worry about, and they really are warm !
She is certainly not chilblained,
No parasites, all good, apart from old age, weak bladder, that is related to being old neuteured bitch, shes on meds for that,
Kennel not damp, it must get enough air going through, clean dry fleece over waterproof big dog cushion ........the kennels fine, its the being left that is not.
I wouldn't worry about the older one being outside in this weather as our old girl is now 14 and she insists on going outside at night when it's the coldest, she has 2 nice warm coats and we have given her 2 different kennels, not wanting to use either and would prefer to lay outside in the pouring rain, it's her idea of heaven and she comes indoors in the morning as bright as a button
We also have a younger dog, she's 3 and she does the same to our older dog, but she only tends to do it when we're at home I think their both attention seeking.
I would do as others have suggested to get a dog walker in, we very often have dog walkers that advertise on our local board and their always very competitively priced.
Your priority should be to get the old lurcher indoors as soon as possible. The temperature here has not got above freezing all day. Even with a coat on, being outdoors is no place for a very elderly sighthound. Frankly, that's bordering on cruelty. In this cold weather, they could be susceptible to a range of illnesses, including chilblains on their ears. If kennel is not heated how are you controlling humidity, parasites etc? What is the minimum temperature out there? At least with doggy day care they'd be warm and well cared for. And putting in decent care arrangements is part of the financial package of owning a dog - if you won't budget for that, then you really should rethink your commitment to ownership. Most kennels where dogs are kept for boarding etc purposes will have a minimum temperature of 7C with sleeping temps of around 10C but bear in mind that older dogs (LIKE YOURS) are less able to regulate their temperature.
They are dogs, they have no idea what going on holiday means & probably have no memory of it. It is irrelevant here to be honest, because it does nothing to improve the situation.
But your holidays do sound like fun
Coming on holiday with us is significant to them i Beleive because on a regular basis throughout the year, they are with us 24 hours, different walks, beaches, sniffs, stimulus etc..
Holiday time for us includes the dogs as opposed to we go on our jollies, and they go into kennels.
However, i do concede that day to day existence has been somewhat lacking, and can be improved.
I wouldnt crate for long periods.
I will work on providing / rotating toys to reduce destructiveness risk in place of being able to roam the garden.
No, we have really gone to great lengths to ensure they warm and dry out in kennels, and have some really good quality coats
Not surprised about letter, tbh.
Ive always assumed there will be a bit of barking every now and then when big pigeon is on bird table, dustbin men go past that kind of thing, but assumed it would be pretty intermittent and shortlived, as when we are home.
Neighbours are very keep self to self,
One neighbour had only one conversation with us, to moan about my dp's scooter being started up occasionally ...
So not really the friendly type.
I will ring dog warden, but still initiate changes as discussed.
Thanks for input folks.
Going on holiday with you doesn't mean anything to them. They are being left for over 6hrs a day with nothing to do. You admit that the younger puppy entertains itself by antagonising the older dog - which in itself is unfair.
They don't have a good life day to day & that is why you have received a complaint against them. It takes some time to get a complaint like this escalated to the point that the dog warden gets in touch, it usually involves diaries being kept over time etc, so don't fool yourself that this is a short term issue. Dogs barking is absolutely awful when it is constantly in the background.
Also, please be aware that keeping them inside may not fix the issue. Little puppy will still want entertaining, which ultimately means that he will still antagonise older dog, which = barking! So keeping them inside isn't going to solve the problem. Although unless crated, the puppy may find entertainment value in wrecking your home.
Ok its sounds like a normal standard letter - what you need to do is give the dog warden a ring and see what the complainant said. I'm not saying that the dogs aren't barking but if the complaint alleges that they are barking say at 4pm then you know its not true as you are there iyswim.
The council is duty bound to let you know they have received a complaint against you regardless of whether there is any foundation to the allegations.
However it does seem that you aren't that surprised to get the letter which does suggest there is a problem. If the younger dog is upsetting the older one, is there any way the younger can be left in the house to give the old one peace?
I think 8.30 to 3 is manageable for some dogs. Our terrier is on her own for exactly those hours and snores the entire time
on the sofa. I sometimes come home at lunchtime and she doesn't even get up to acknowledge me until the proper time.
But I'm a bit shocked that an old dog is outside in this current weather for that long. It's bloody freezing. Barking may well be a warming up exercise or an attention seeking 'let me in please' tactic.
Bring them inside. Keep them in a room with a washable floor and get a dog walker if you possibly can.
Pup doesnt woof at all, as far as i know, that is,
She plays with toys, chases birds, digs my garden up
The old girly woofs when pup is on a wind up mission.
The old gal woofs really loudly which incites the young one to jump and dance about excitedly, which makes her woof more, when old girl has had enough of this, she goes in her kennel and pup gets on with something else, because old girl wont her in her kennel, pup has her own.
So its a bit of a game that they play, i guess if lurcher was younger they would tear around together.
When we are there, we intervene and distract pup and get her to play with us, or whatever,
When we are not there, i guess this loud behaviour, could go on for sometime, and has obviously been bloody annoying.
The letter said they had received a complaint,
And they hoped the issue would be resolved, if they received further complaints they may start evidence gathering.....
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