Help please, I find this plan dreadful - any thoughts.

[atosilis]

Hi,

My daughter lives in our flat, we live somewhere else. I've now found out she is buying a tiny puppy which will only be the size of a large cat when it's full grown.

I am furious re the flat, but that's another 5 page rant. To add to this, she works full time and is planning to keep the puppy in her transit van in the carpark during the day. The van has 1 window and daylight at each side. She will pop out at lunchtime and take it for walks. It will have a rug, toys, food and water. She says the longest it will be left alone is about 2 hours and she'll be back out again, "as the smokers are always popping out for a smoke".

My feeling is 'poor little thing'. It is 4 weeks now and she is getting it when it's 10 weeks.

[JaxTellerIsMyFriend]

you could always say no pets in the flat.

You are right, this is a very poorly thought out situation on her part. A puppy needs socialisation and being stuck in a van is not the way to do it.

[atosilis]

Her response is that friends of hers leave theirs in the kitchen during the day, at least she can see it more often.

[atosilis]

She knows that if she'd asked, I would have said, 'No'.

[PropositionJoe]

I think you can still say no! Say it's because of the flat.

[HoneyDragon]

Can you contact the breeder? Hopefully it is a fairly decent one who will be horrified at it being kept in a van and refuse to let her have it?

What will she do in the Summer when it over heats?

[flowery]

If she knows if asked you would have said no, you can still say no, surely?

[WeatherWitch]

That's completely irresponsible - even in winter on a sunny day it could overheat quite quickly inside a van. The first warm summery day and it will die. Not to mention all the issues of socialisation etc. Dogs aren't good when left alone for prolonged periods, and just popping out to see it occasionally will only increase its separation anxiety. Say no because of the flat, and tell her that you'll set the RSPCA on her if she tries to keep it in a van.

[FredWorms]

As others say, it won't work in the Summer. It just won't.

[MrsZoidberg]

I thought pups needed warmth too, so downright cruel if it's not sunny aswell.

And what about toilet training or does she think that this poor little thing will be able to hold on for 2 hours?

[WTFwasthat]

oh dear. poor puppyy i bet she hasnt bargained on the feelings og guilt when pup is whimpering

[atosilis]

Thanks everyone. Apparently the breeder does know this.

The van has been converted so that you can stay on it in campsites, sorry not to mention that, it was a transit van. It has more insulation, a table and pulldown beds. I said that the police and RSPCA would be on her back in the summer but she said that the carpark is for her company only, she can keep the windows open for breeze and park it under a tree for shade. This from someone very intelligent....words fail me.

I have said, 'Dogs die in hot cars, you know that'. "It's not a car". We also saw a load of sniffer dogs in cages in a Police van over the Olympics and I think she thinks she can do the same.

Her boyfriend is an electrician and carts his soppy alsation around everywhere in the back of the van. Stops people ever trying to nick stuff. I can see where her idea has germinated. It's a PUPPY. >

[flowery]

Why don't you say no to a dog in the flat OP?

[70isaLimitNotaTarget]

Trouble is OP, if you say "no" to the puppy in the flat, and she's determined to have it, would she try to keep it in the van 24/7

Or maybe you might end up with the puppy at your house?

(I'm not advocating saying Yes just so that the dog doesn't end up in the van BTW)

[atosilis]

I have said "no" to the dog in the flat, the whole building has a policy of no pets so it's not just me.

She has said that she is at her BF's most of the time so she's not 100% residential in the building. She promises puppy will never be left alone in the flat to bark and annoy neighbours.

Even if we sort out where it's going to live, apart from the fact that the alsation might think it's a snack - there's still the problem of the van all day.

[atosilis]

We have seriously fallen out over this, believe me, it's been (and still is) very upsetting. This is the first time we've argued with volume in about 10 years.

[70isaLimitNotaTarget]

So , in reality, if the dog won't be allowed in the flat (due to the blanket ban on dogs- and if she does try to sneak it in, someone will hear it) then it's going to be in the van or at her BF all the time.

What kind of state is the van going to be in with an un toilet trained pup in it all day?
If she's determined, she'll do it. And the loser will be the dog .

Does the breeder know that this will be the case? ie the dog not in the flat? Or just what your daughter has told them- which might be what they want to hear.

No way would she get a rescue dog if she told them this was her plan

[atosilis]

She is now actively looking to move out as I'm being so unreasonable and a downer on everything.
Even if the puppy ends up living in a basket with the alsation till she moves out, my big problem is the van.

She says if she can sleep in it (and has) and a dog can sleep in it (and has) then a puppy can.

I always said she should have gone into law, she can argue each and every point and has the memory of the entire NASA Space station computer.

Thanks everyone, there is not one person who has said, "Oh, the puppy will be fine" and that's what I was checking.

[Scuttlebutter]

Virtually everyone else has already made the excellent points that this is a dreadful, and irresponsible thing for your DD to be contemplating. No reputable breeder would be happy with this situation for an instant. If you are really committed to trying to stop this, try to find out if the breeder is either KC registered and report them to the KC, or if licensed by local authority, report them to the Council licensing department - by knowingly selling to such an irresponsible and cruel owner, the breeder is almost certainly breeching hte Animal Welfare Act. If htey aren't licensed, because too small, then report to HMRC.

Personally, if your DD also parks her van at her place of work, I would report this to her employer. No decent company will be happy at a potentially illegal activity being carried on in their car park, especially if you threaten to constantly ask the RSPCA and local Trading Standards to keep calling round.

[SpicyPear]

I'm just at this... It's cruel and ridiculous for all the excellent points already made above. The poor think will go nuts locked up all day with a couple of visits. It won't even be able to go out walking at 10 weeks because of vaccinations. I think if she goes ahead she'll be in for quite a shock and she'll be putting it up for rehoming within six months.

If there is any way you can get through to her, please try again!

[atosilis]

She's not cruel Scuttle, she cries at the drop of a hat at cruelty. Sometimes she just has no sense. Seriously no sense.

I can't talk to her at the moment as I am is such distress my throat has got what I call 'nervous stone' and I can't swallow. We are both calming down and I'll try again later.

All her friends are behind her and say they'll take it in turns to go down to the van and keep it company for 5 mins an hour. I will tell her that I have asked dog owners what they think and they are all against it.

[Ephiny]

Does she know how much time and attention a new puppy needs, even just to get toilet training sorted out, not to mention the other basic training and socialisation they need? I wouldn't even consider a puppy while working full-time.

Surely no responsible breeder would consider her for a puppy in this situation - not just her working hours, but the fact that dogs aren't allowed in her flat and she plans to leave it in a van all day . And buying from a less-than-responsible breeder is a bad idea for many reasons.

[SpicyPear]

I'm sorry atolisis, I understand she's your daughter and you are giving her the benefit of the doubt but this is cruel and certainly not something someone "intelligent" would consider. How long is this enthusiasm from her friends going to last after a few goes retrieving a hyper pup from a van full of pee and poo? How old is she? Is she prepared for staying in every night and most of the weekend when the puppy is young?

She is putting her own selfish desire to have a puppy before the welfare of the animal. The more I think about this the more angry it makes me.

[Ephiny]

Yes she may not mean to be cruel, but plenty of animal suffering (and dogs ending up in rescue/put to sleep) is caused by ignorance and lack of sense, rather than deliberate cruelty. I'm sure she's a kind and well-meaning person, but that doesn't make this a sensible plan, for all the reasons given above.

I still can't get over the fact that a breeder would be OK with a pup going to someone living in a flat that doesn't allow dogs . Do they know that?

[atosilis]

I think she has realised how furious/upset I am. She has rarely heard me so incensed. She is old enough to not miss going out. I have told her that you need to have someone at home when a puppy is small.

We still have some weeks and I hope that her sister will come on board and be calmer in dissuading her.

[Scuttlebutter]

I flatly disagree, OP. She IS being cruel and neglectful. This is a puppy, a vulnerable young creature. If she is this cavalier about its early care she is risking disease, theft, serious behavioural issues at a later date, overheating in summer, freezing in winter - does she have any idea how much pups CHEW? The pup will be at wires, cables, bodywork in the van, going mad with frustration and loneliness. It will be sitting in piles of its own shit and wee, as pups with the best training in the world take ages to get housetrained. Show her some of the threads on here about puppy ownership and the reality of the shit, the bites, the disturbed sleep, the chewed possessions, the frustration, the need for training. I am speechless that any one who knows a shred about care for dogs would regard this as anything other than cruel.

I can also foresee what will happen. ONce it is crapping all over her precious bloody van, and the van smells, and it is barking, and her boss complains, she will dump it, either on a rescue or in a pound. If in a pound, it will ahve seven days before it is killed. A poorly socialised dog with by that time undoubted behavioural issues. Does your daughter have any idea how many perfectly healthy, beautifully behaved dogs are killed in Council pounds each day? Has she BEEN to a Council pound? Does she ahve any idea how stressful a noisy, smelly kennel is for a dog, surrounded by strangers, unable to exhibit normal behaviours, then finally after a week led to its death by a stranger?

And if it goes to a rescue - well, poor bloody sods like me will then have the job of trying desperately to raise money for its care, find a home for a dog that is now behaviourally challenging, and coping with trying to find a foster home to rehabilitate it. It won't be your daughter, because irresponsible CRUEL owners like her seem to think rescues are full of lovely homes queueing up to provide a cosy sofa for damaged dogs. How I wish that fairy tale was true. I'm going to be standing with a collecting tin on Sunday actually - believe me I'd far rather be at home with DH, making marmalade for Christmas.

Show her this thread. Tell her again that her actions are CRUEL, and irresponsible.