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Beyond furious with myself

(23 Posts)

So, we acquired Jasper from a lady 3 weeks ago claiming that she had to rehome him as she was returning to work after maternity leave. The puppy was supposed to be an unasked for birthday gift from her husband. She seemed genuinely sad at letting him go. A friend of a friend put us in touch when they heard we were thinking of fostering. Anyway, she didn't ask for money outright, but we offered and ended up giving her £250. She gave us his vet card with his jabs, a document stating that his tail had been docked legally and by who and for why, and a photocopy of his fathers pedigree line. All seemed above board, house was nice, lady seemed genuine. So guess what? Do I even need to say it? Just seen the exact same fucking advert on Preloved, updated yesterday. Another 13 week old red Sprocker male in urgent need of a home due to owner's new work pattern. I am kicking myself and so upset. I've contacted Preloved to report the ad, and sent an email to the LA welfare officer. Is there anything else I can do? I will be taking Jasper to the vet tomorrow for a full health check, because I can't believe a word the lying 'owner' said. Oh, and £250 seems to be the going rate, as that's what she's asked for in the ad. I am beyond angry and upset with myself for falling for it. I want to reply to the ad and just say 'Another one? How fucking unfortunate', but tbh I'm scared of repercussions. I'm guessing puppy farmers aren't exactly pleasant people. Fuck!

Sorry for the swearing, I'm just so angry. And upset. We all love this little dog now, and he might have God knows what health issues. Christ knows where he has come from, or what conditions he has endured before we got him. His temperamnent seems good, but now I'm less certain than I was that he'll be a well temperamented adult dog. Bastards.

DogsBeastFiend Sat 15-Oct-11 19:40:22

Swearing? Sorry? That's nothing compared to what I'd be saying about the fucking bitch. angry

So cross on your behalf and for the dogs that the excuse for a human is using and abusing in order to make a profit. Chances are they're coming from an equally disreputable source too. sad

Will pm you.

helpmabob Sat 15-Oct-11 19:43:48

Thats awful, I am sorry. Can I ask what possible reason there was for having the tail docked?

3cutedarlings Sat 15-Oct-11 19:48:12

I dont know an awful lots about PF however i just wanted to add that im sure your Jasper will turn out to be a wonderful adult dog, because he has responsible owners that will ensure this.

The doc's state that he had his tail docked so he could work as a gun dog. I did question this, but the seller said that the breeder used their dogs as working dogs. Tbh, I now doubt all of the doc's I have for him, because she's obviously full of shit and is just out to make money. His tail is about five inches long, with a crease about an inch from the end which, to be frank, makes it look a bit lik a cock. I have no experience with docking so don't know if that's normal or the result of bad docking. Whatever happens, we love this dog and he's now part of our family. I'm just beyond angry that I've unwittingly helped to fund bastard puppy farmers. I give a shit about animal welfare, and I hate that I've added to suffering.

DogsBeastFiend Sat 15-Oct-11 20:26:10

From an English vet's website:

It is illegal for any pup born on or after the 6th of April 2007 to be docked unless;

It has been docked by a vet before it is 5 days old, and
It is a terrier, spaniel or hunt point retrieve breed, and
It comes from a working background and it is intended to go to a working home. Work means dogs involved in the armed forces, emergency rescue, law enforcement, the prison service, revenue and customs services, pest control and legal hunting. A vet must see proof of this before they will do the operation, and
It has a certificate, from the vet, that states the operation was performed legally and must be microchipped before 3 months of age.

The doc I have states that he is a gun dog, and that the op was done at 2 days old. Yet the pedigree papers state that his father was a show winning cocker. His mother is supposed to be a cocker/springer cross.

DogsBeastFiend Sat 15-Oct-11 20:35:39

Excellent docking info here - http://www.cdb.org/awa/index.htm. Seems to be that the owner sold the dog to you knowing that the dog was going to a pet home BUT that would logically only be guilty of an offence IF you can prove that she is the breeder. After all, I could have legally bought a docked pup or dog, worked him and then sold/given him to you at a later stage and thus not be guilty of anything wrong.

If the woman didn't breed the pup then the person who did has broken the law as they sold the pup to her and yet she didn't intend to work him. Problem is proving it, the breeder could claim that the original owner had told him that she DID intend to work the pup.

DogsBeastFiend Sat 15-Oct-11 20:40:07

Maybe worth reporting to the Kennel Club as the mother is supposed to be registered? As you might guess I'm pretty clueless on KC stuff as I don't have anything to do with breeding unless there's an issue like yours. Midori1999 is your lady for this, she's a breeder of Retrievers, maybe put a thread up with her name in the title?

DogsBeastFiend Sat 15-Oct-11 20:40:51

Sorry, my mistake, I meant that the FATHER is a registered show dog.

Do you think so? There is a number on their website I could ring Monday. I suppose it's worth a punt.

Scuttlebutter Sat 15-Oct-11 23:20:07

So sorry to read this, Chickens. And yet again, it endorses the need to be really thorough when selecting a breeder. I've been criticised before on this website for my approach to this, but this example demonstrates perfectly the approaches used by unscrupulous lying breeders. At a legal seminar two weeks ago, I was chatting to a vet who was saying that the vet papers for docking are often forged - he had come across his own name being used on a docking certificate when he had not done the operation. So if you see the vet's name, please do contact them to check it out - it may not be genuine.

Unfortunately the vet went on to say that he reported it to the RCVS, the police and the local Council, and hte Kennel Club and as far as he knew, no further action was taken. Seems to be one of those laws that is widely ignored. So, the onus is even more on the potential owner to be very, very thorough, do their homework and check things like that. I know we've mentioned this before, but it's worth Googling the phone number given and even the description of the dog - you'd be amazed what comes up.

I would also consider reporting the breeder to HMRC - this can be a very lucrative little sideline for people which is why they do it.

I'm gutted that I fell for it. I keep hoping that there's been some mistake, but as the ad was updated on Friday and we've had Jasper for 3 weeks it's not bloody likely is it? I suspect she isn't farming herself, but acting as a supplier. Sneaky bastards, because they know that people won't buy animals that have been bred this way if they make it obvious. I'm ringing my vet as soon as they open, and taking Jasper and his papers down to see him hopefully. Then maybe I'll know a bit more. I just hope and pray that my little dog is healthy.

kid Sun 16-Oct-11 09:35:04

So sorry to hear you were duped in to believing what sounded like a genuine story.
I really do hope Jasper is fit and healthy, its a good idea to get him checked out by your own vet.
I'm sure his adult temperement is a result from their puppyhood and training. I'm sure he will be fine as you will ensure he grows up surrounded by love and boundaries.
I've got a springer spaniel and I was extremely careful with selecting him after a terrible experience with my first puppy who was purchased.from a 'breeder' who wanted.some extra cash sad

Let us know how you get on at the vets.

daisydotandgertie Sun 16-Oct-11 15:27:03

It is possible for a show bred dog to work - it's just been bred for showing rather than working - so it's looks are more important than it's skills.

Working dogs do look very different to show dogs - both are beautiful but look very different. I think it's unlikely that a show winning dog would be carelessly mated to a cross tbh so it does look as though you're spot on with your suspicions.

I can see exactly why you are so upset. I would be furious with myself too - but try to remember that poor breeding isn't a guarantee of poor health or temperament. What's done is done and the best you can do is contact the KC ref Dad (have you googled his KC name? You might be able to find his breeder who'd no doubt be pleased to know what's being done in his name), trading standards, HMC etc etc so that it doesn't happen again.

Have you got him insured yet? Just in case. You probably already have and know there's a 14 day exclusion for claims which I'd pay particular attention to and avoid visiting the vet for a routine check up until it was up. Just in case.

Oh yes - I'd also phone the vet who did the vaccinations and check that the card is genuine and definitely avoid taking the dog to busy doggy places until I knew the outcome of that call.

The vet was brilliant. He thinks that Jasper is about the age she said he was, and he had had his vacs. However, he'd had them two weeks earlier than she said he had, suggesting that she was merely passing the puppy on and hadn't cared for him for any length of time. Luckily, the vet could find no problems with Jasper right now, and said he's definitely more Cocker than not. However, he could'nt swear that the cross was Springer. I'm not bothered as long as he's healthy tbh. The docking paperwork looks legit, but the vet isn't convinced. He seemed to think the tail would have bene docked nearer the body if it had been done by a vet. Basically, he told me to assume that it had nothing to do with my dog, and was doctored in some way.

Preloved contacted me asking for some more details, so hopefully they'll remove the ad. Although I know that won't do much, because it's easy enough to just open a new email account and start all over again. I just hope the inconvenience makes her think.

TracyK Sun 16-Oct-11 16:44:54

Just keep checking Preloved every few weeks (for ever!!) and try and make her life hell - you know what you are looking for now!

ChippingInToThePumpkinLantern Sun 16-Oct-11 16:52:45

Chickens - I'm so sorry you have been duped like this, when you went out of your way to do it properly sad

However, try to take some comfort from the fact that Jasper now has a loving home and he may not have, if you hadn't taken him. He could have gone to anyone and possibly ended up in a rescue.

Keep doing as TK said!

alice15 Mon 17-Oct-11 21:33:11

Most working spaniels are in fact docked with much longer tails left on than used to be the case for some show spaniels back in the days of docking for show, so that doesn't mean he wasn't docked by a vet, but if the certificate is genuine then it should have all the details of the vet who did it on it, and it should be possible to ring them up and check with them; they should have a record of the evidence they saw before being willing to dock the dog. Getting hold of a blank certificate is not exactly hard; anyone can download them from the DEFRA website. A long dock is far less likely to cause problems than a very short one, so don't worry about that part of it. As long as your certificate has his microchip number on it (he is microchipped, isn't he? if not, get him done ASAP because the docking certificate isn't valid without it even if it's genuine) then you have nothing to worry about from that point of view.
One of the nicest dogs we ever had was born on a Welsh puppy farm and rehomed to us as a youngster. Don't beat yourself up too much, and don't worry too much about him - chances are he'll be a great dog anyway.

He wasn't microchipped, alice, but we got him done last week. The vet seemed to think that was a bit off (him being docked and not chipped). Good to hear that the docking is at least in keeping with his breed. I thought they'd just cocked it up to be honest. Anyway, what's done is done and I'm just glad he seems healthy at the moment <watched puppy go bounding past dragging a teatowel>

Abra1d Tue 18-Oct-11 11:13:09

Honestly, he seems as if he's doing really well with you and is fit and happy you perhaps don't need to worry as much?

So much of the dog's adult temperament will be bound up by how you and your family bring him up. Lots of love and attention and training will take you a long way with most puppies, even if they've come from less than ideal starts in life.

angry at the woman who sold him to you, though.

FroOOOOOtshoOOOOOOts Tue 18-Oct-11 13:23:44

My Springer has been docked and his tail is about 5 inches long, I think. If it would keep still for long enough I'd measure it.
They don't always dock them to a stump.
The fur at the end of his tail will still grow all long and feathery get full of burrs, brambles, mud and cow poo and cover the end anyway. If it is 5 inches long now most people won't even realise he's been docked when he's fully grown. I'm not a fan of docking by the way in case it sounds like i'm agreeing with it. I'm just trying to make you feel more positive about it all!

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