Bloody bloody bloody, my bitch just mated with her FATHER, Help(35 Posts)
Both pedigree animals, male belongs to my mum who is a KC accredited breeder. My bitch (his daughter who I had from my mum) had a litter last year, was an excellent mum and really enjoyed it. She came into season nearly 3 weeks ago and I was toying with the idea of having another litter from her. Pups would be pedigree/KC registered of course.
However the two local whippet stud dogs I like, one the owners were on holiday, the other has recently been spaid so I'd decided not to bother this time, take my time finding another suitable stud and mate her next time.
Day 17, take her with me when I go over to my mum's with DD. Obviously I'm thinking she is not going to be standing anymore as she is day 17, not bleeding etc. She barks very crossly at my mum's stud dog when he smells her so I figured she was definitely off the boil (as it were) as this is normal bitch behaviour when a dog is a bit interested in residual smell and bitch is not up for it.
well to cut a long story short, 20mins later it turned out she WAS interested and they were tied in the kitchen.
So can I garner some experienced opinions? I know the KC won't register father/daughter matings anymore (quite rightly) to prevent long term inbreeding. But if it is a one-off accident, is it likely to be harmful to the genetics of the litter? Should I go get her the injection? Or could she have the pups and I could raise them as I would a 'regular' litter (i.e. best of everthing, wormed/vac/insured/well handled/lifetime return to breeder guarantee) but part with them for less money? What sort of people would want to buy a litter bred in this way? would the pups be less likely to have good, caring, responsible homes?
On the one hand I think, straight down the vets to get it sorted. But on the other hand I think, am I being over-reactive... do these pups stand just as good a chance of a long, happy, healthy life as a KC registered pup who didn't result from a one-off father/daughter partnership.
Please be nice, not looking at getting into a pedigree v mongrel dog or ethics of breeding debate please, just would appriciate some facts/educated opinions on this situation
if it were me I'd be straight down to the vets for the MAP / injection
even if the puppies are all healthy I think you'll have trouble selling them due to the father/daughter link
you cant let her have her fathers puppies, think of the genetics. get her the injection.
Put it this way - one big point of responsible breeding is to improve the breed line. Obviously this mating is quite the opposite, albeit unplanned. I would look very dimly on a breeder who had such pups and certainly wouldn't touch you with a bargepole if I were looking for a KC reg pedigree Whippet, I would be unwilling to deal with a breeder who is also selling father/daughter resultant pups. You will be limiting your market and screwing your reputation as a breeder.
Things which immediately jump to my mind - What's to stop buyers from breeding one of the pups? it all goes downhill from there, doesn't it?
Non registered dogs (although we all know that KC registration means feck all nowdays) basically means mutts. There are enough of those desperate for homes as it is. You may not want to hear it, but that's a fact, it isn't going to go away.
Also, that you didn't know what the mating can do to genetics BEFORE you became a breeder and that you STILL don't know is inexcusable. Breed vigour? Disease? Inherent conditions? Behavioural issues?
In short, FFS take her to the vets for the injection, poor little mite.
Get down the vets and have the injection, it was an accident, but you now need to do the responsible thing. Alizin is much much safer than Mesalin ever was and so the risks are tiny now.
Also in future the bitch can be receptive to the dog for up to 21days after the red blood stops - yes I know everyones says day 14 is the time, but in truth it is anything from day1 to day 21.
I wouldnt 'buy' one of those pups from you - and nor would any responsible dog person.
Please take her to the vets for the injection, it really is the right thing to do.
Good grief, how can there be any doubt in your mind?
If your Mum is a decent breeder, she should a) not have allowed you to bring an in season bitch to a household with stud dogs in it or ensured your bitch was kept seperate from any entire males whilst there and they certainly shouldn't have been left unsupervised together. b) she should be insisting you get to the vet for Alizin.
A lot of the wording and content in your initial post makes me think you shouldn't be breeding at all tbh.
Also, as a mismate jab increases the risk of pyometra, spaying is something to seriously consider sooner rather than later.
Agreed, vets straight away. I agree totally with midori. You shouldn't even have wated time posting.
Please take her to the vet and have the injection, and get her spayed as soon as possible. The only possible argument you could have for not doing so is that you think you can offload the pups without any paperwork to some dodgy cash buyers. Which would make you the worst kind of BYB, and would justify a discussion on breeding ethics. Everyone on this post, including a vet, a highly regarded breeder and rescue people have given you the same view. I'm amazed that you would even ask.
<nothing to add that hasn't been said already>
Absolutely get the injection ASAP. Very poor judgement shown in considering taking the bitch to your Mums, then leaving it unatended!! Even when a bitch finishes her season she still has a bitchey smell about her and to have brought her into your Mums house was not fair on her dog, never mind her! Reading your post it looks like you are trying to justify this litter and I don't think you can, absolutely not. Get the injection and learn by your experience.
If someone posted on here said they were considering buying a pup from an 'accidental' father/daughter litter, you know what the reaction would be. And would you want the pups to go to homes where they didn't care?
Another vote for the injection.
i am [shocked] that this was allowed to happen in the first place and that you have to ask if you should go to the vet and get injection.
i dont think you or your mum are responsible and/or knowledgeable enough to breed dogs.
yawn typical hysterical mumsnet. One thing I particularly loathe about this site is that people see fit not just to answer a question but to actually JUDGE a person for asking in the first place.
My mother is out of the country at the moment which is why I am not able to ask her advice. Stupidly I came on here thinking I would be able to get some rational facts.
For those of you who think an accidental mating is grounds for such vitriol, you are either being delibertately offensive or depserately naive. I am not the first, second or third, perfectly good 'home' breeder to have had an accidental mating. This is not an excuse, I am aware that it is not a good thing or something to boast about, but accidents happen.
for those that actually gave helpful advice, without either swearing (yes I do know what FFS stands for), making snap judgements or generally being totally unnecessarily offensive, thank you very much.
The fact that you can think that a post on the internet, detailing one accidental mating, is grounds for suggesting neither my mother (who is not even in the country) or me should ever breed a dog is so ludicrous, I can hardly bring myself to respond to it.
I will be hiding this thread so by all means continue to enjoy being superiour on it but I will not see the responses.
And once again, thank you for all the helpful advice, e.g. talking about the puppies technically being mutts, the risk of future owners breeding, the pups being hard to find homes for, the likelyhood of poor future owners - all these have helped to clarify my think which (as I said in my first post) was instinctively to take her to the vet.
I can't believe you expected any other response to be honest - and not because MN is typically hysterical, but because you'd get the same response pretty much anywhere you cared to ask such a bizarre question.
Hopefully you're at least a bit more aware of the technicalities of canine reproduction now.
Um, actually SWW, accidents don't happen, at least not to responsible breeders. Responsible breeders keep bitches and dogs seperate when in season. Responsible breeders don't allow 20 minutes to go by, while both dogs were under your noses to get themselves tied without you doing anything. Responsible owners would probably have had the bitch spayed after one litter, or even better, before. Responsible breeders don't choose a stud dog just because they are local and they certainly don't make faces when hearing of a dog being neutered. Responsible breeders don't "toy" with the idea of a litter - they think long and hard about it and carefully consider what benefits could accrue to the line and if they are comfortable with the work that is entailed and the risk to the bitch, as well as the expense. Responsible breeders identity potential homes before breeding. I could go on, but you get the picture.
Actually, I think the posts were generally pretty polite, direct and gave good advice. Nothing hysterical about the posts, many of whom were from highly experienced breeders and a vet, and are people whose advice I would value.
<wry, sad smile>
at least this OP supports the other one on reasons why it is crucial to vet your breeder
I do love a 'breeder' who think male dogs are 'spaid'...
Scuttle is very right, although I do agree with the OP that accidents do happen. However, there is a difference between a genuine accident where someone has done everything they could to prevent a mating and something beyond their control happened that meant a mating still occurred and someone being careless by allowing an in season bitch and entire male together. The latter obviously being entirely preventable. Also, in the former instance, there would be no question of an unplanned mating being prevented from becoming a pregnancy whether the dog an dbitch in question were related or not.
I also agree that someone who does not know about the potential ill effects of inbreeding or know the lines they are dealing with well enough to know just how risky it is likely to be shouldn't be breeding anyway.
Plus, I seem to remember the OP detailing some of their Mother's breeding practices on another thread and got arsey then when it was pointed out they were less than ideal. It's a [ity the KC accredited breeder scheme isn't what it should be.
ScuttleButter, I picked up on the face about a bitch being spayed and the idea of "a local" stud dog (sign of a very responsible breeder... yeah, right). I also used FFS but got thanked for my comments on that the purchasers might try to breed from these pups and so on. Very peculiar.
A couple of things which also sprang to my attention:
"My mother is out of the country at the moment which is why I am not able to ask her advice. Stupidly I came on here thinking I would be able to get some rational facts. You did, you just didn't like them. Why the feck are you breeding dogs if you are inexperienced enough to need the advice of just one, absent, person and have let two related dogs mate?
For those of you who think an accidental mating is grounds for such vitriol, you are either being delibertately offensive or depserately naive. No, one of us is a responsible and reputable breeder and at least two of us are experienced campaigners against backyard breeders (for that's what you are) and also rescuers - the people who pick up the pieces of ill-advised breeding whilst wiping away our tears and keeping on our computers and in our hearts and minds the images of the dogs who die for want of homes/
I am not the first, second or third, perfectly good 'home' breeder to have had an accidental mating. You are NOT a "perfectly good" breeder nor are you a "home breeder". A perfectly good breeder does not allow the mating of related dogs and even if it were to happen would not consider for a moment allowing any pregnancy to continue (see the post from Midori, a reputable breeder).
There is no such thing as a "home breeder". The correct term for such a breeder is BACKYARD BREEDER. And that's what you are
But the OP doesn't care because out of 22 posts, including her own two, two were from the same poster saying ooh, she'd like a whippet and asking about the cost of the injection and the other 18 were telling her to have the poor dog injected (and I'd say spayed too) and she got the bloody hump about it.
Shame op isn't coming back...because it would be good for her to know that people who don't even breed dogs or have a great knowledge of them know that you avoid the circumstances which she has posted.
I have no idea about breeding, but I do know that you avoid the scenario posted by the op.
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