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The White Queen- Part 2

(121 Posts)
Chunderella Tue 20-Aug-13 19:48:44

Because lots of people seemed to still have interesting things to say when the other thread got full up. And also because I think I want to have a threesome with Lord Stanley and Margaret Beaufort.

TunipTheUnconquerable Fri 23-Aug-13 20:31:58

BillSticker, go to Middleham Castle instead. It's English Heritage but lots of atmosphere nonetheless.
Then I will tell you how to get to my favourite swimming hole nearby which we have named Richard III's Jacuzzi because we think he probably went there as a boy.

lilystem Sat 24-Aug-13 07:00:06

Where is it tunip?

I was thinking about Henry viii's grandparents. No wonder he was a bit loopy with the ones he had!

TunipTheUnconquerable Sat 24-Aug-13 08:20:23

It's in Wensleydale in North Yorkshire. Admittedly a bit of a trek if you're in the south but Wensleydale is heaven if you like 15th/16th c history: Bolton Castle and Jervaulx Abbey nearby, as well.

BumbleChum Sat 24-Aug-13 10:21:38

Where in Wensleydale Tunip? We will be there next week - kids would love A swimming hole!

TunipTheUnconquerable Sat 24-Aug-13 10:45:16

OK well Richard III's Jacuzzi is part of the limestone pavement on the River Cover. You go up onto Middleham Moor from the road out of Middleham for about a mile and park by the gate on the left where there's a bench. You walk down the path across a field on the left to Hullo Bridge, which is marked on the OS map. You cross the bridge and turn left along the river for a few hundred yards until you get to the limestone pavement and you will see a cleft in the limestone pavement. At the end of it there's a bit of a pool below a teeny waterfall and that is the jacuzzi. It's also fun to let go and let the water whizz you down the channel. Richard III loved doing that. (<<<--- totally made up, but probably true)

Given that medieval noblemen were expected to be able to swim and teenage boys have always splashed in nice rivers, I think we're entitled to assume Richard III will have gone there as a boy smile

If you want another good place for river swimming in Wensleydale, there are 2 amazing ones: there's a massive stretch below the lower falls at Aysgarth with a rope swing, and the other good one is the Ure at Masham - you park at the little carpark by the bridge opposite the cricket pitch and follow the footpath up the river. The best place is next to the fishermens' hut.

(Apologies for hijacking thread with wild swimming talk - you can think of it as Living History grin)

AgnesBligg Sat 24-Aug-13 11:19:20

I love the idea that we can take a dip in the same jacuzzi as Richard iii blush.

Ok I see that Elizabeth W had a yearly pension from Henry vii of £400. Further research (!) tells me this was worth about 200k. So she wasn't poor, no.

I'm interested that Elizabeth W possibly wanted to de=throne Henry, which seems odd given that her daughter was the queen. And the Lambert Simnel rebellion. I know nothing at all. Nothing.

Tiredemma Sat 24-Aug-13 11:21:29

I have just had a romantic vision of visiting said jazuzzi and finding Aneurin Barnard there (as Rich iii obv) thrashing about in nothing but a Crown.

TunipTheUnconquerable Sat 24-Aug-13 11:24:06

grin TiredEmma

If you go at midnight when it's a full moon, on the anniversary of Bosworth....

TunipTheUnconquerable Sat 24-Aug-13 11:24:42

Oops, bugger, that was 2 days ago, wasn't it? shock

Tiredemma Sat 24-Aug-13 11:25:36

Ill have to go next year then. Ill leave my glasses off and hope that anything I cannot see clearly is AB, naked except for the Crown.

TunipTheUnconquerable Sat 24-Aug-13 11:30:43

When I was a teenager I quite fancied Richard III and everyone thought I was weird.
I'm happy to see mainstream opinion has now caught up.

Tiredemma Sat 24-Aug-13 11:35:55

Tunip- I have become dangerously obsessed with R iii. In fact if he was alive today (in all his regalia) I would imagine that I would find myself fighting with you for him.

TunipTheUnconquerable Sat 24-Aug-13 11:37:28

<sharpens sword>
<strings longbow>

Tiredemma Sat 24-Aug-13 12:04:32


Colyngbourne Sat 24-Aug-13 13:41:58

Can I correct the idea that Richard wanted rid of his wife "becase she was barren"... they lost Edward of Middleham in late April 1484. In that July Richard gave large grants to Queens' College, Cambridge, in honour of his wife Anne (one of the 'queens'), so actually making a very public loud statement about his devotion to her as his queen.

Far from shunning her bed, the Croyland Chronicle states that Richard had to be advised not to share Anne's bed because of her illness - in itself, this is very unusual: that Richard normally shared her bed and had to be told not to - most kings did not share their wife's bed as a matter of course.

As for courting Eliz of York - Richard was negotiating with Portugal in the month his wife died, for a marriage between himself and Joanna of Portugal, and for Elizabeth of York to marry Manuel of Portugal.

It is recorded in the joint acts of court of the London Mercers and Merchant Adventurers that Richard "showed his grief and displeasure aforesaid and said it never came in his thought or mind to marry in such manner wise, nor willing nor glad of the death of his queen, but as sorry and in heart as heavy as man might be."

AgnesBligg Sat 24-Aug-13 14:05:28

Thank you Colynbourne. It's great that there is so much info here.

diddl Sat 24-Aug-13 14:12:18

To us though, it would seem odd that he was looking to marry before Anne had even died?

TensionWheelsCoolHeels Sat 24-Aug-13 14:55:51

Would that not be due to fear of losing power/sway and concern over who would be crowned next, seeing as his son had died? I might be wrong but perhaps he had to 'think ahead' because of the vultures circling.

I am not in any way clued up on this, so that's just a guess on my

TunipTheUnconquerable Sat 24-Aug-13 15:01:02

Yeah, I reckon if you had someone lined up to be your next queen it would keep her family on side.

FrankelInFoal Sat 24-Aug-13 15:05:12

Marking my spot.

I think it's easy to forget that much of what went on during this period (and much of history) is alien to us and our modern day principals, but back then it was a question of survival.

AgnesBligg Sat 24-Aug-13 15:09:01

He was not negotiating for Joanna before Anne died though was he? He would need to be quick off the mark though make a new heir. And yes, there were plenty of vultures circling. It seems half the nobility had some sort of claim on the throne.

diddl Sat 24-Aug-13 15:30:26

" Richard was negotiating with Portugal in the month his wife died,"

Maybe I misinterpreted that, then, sorry.

AgnesBligg Sat 24-Aug-13 17:00:41

I don't know either Diddl. grin He may well have been planning ahead.

I am still puzzled why William Hastings was written out of the series.

Chunderella Sat 24-Aug-13 18:12:50

While Anne wasn't 'barren' they evidently couldn't have more. They presumably had been trying for more children with no success, as one wouldn't really have been considered enough even before Edward died. I assume it was either secondary infertility, or her health didn't allow her to sustain another pregnancy. Either way, the fact that they'd had a child in the past didn't really help matters, they needed more.

Diddl it obviously seems very uncaring, but you also have to remember that it was his duty to ensure he had an heir, asap. It was a non-optional part of kingship. There was no time to waste, and the stability of the dynasty was literally a matter of life and death for many people other than himself. So that would have been more important than sentiment, and he basically had an obligation to get married.

thing1andthing2 Sat 24-Aug-13 19:04:39

Can I just go off on a tangent and say I thought Stanley was a brilliant character in the series, I particularly loved his line to Margaret : " your boy is going to have to walk past 5 coffins to get to the throne". Amazing really that he ever got there.

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