Constant lying:, I'm refusing to even talk

[MrsWhisker]

It's ludicrous.

I could have a conversation with ds1 (14) and he would just lie.

So for example, I asked ds2 to wake dd1 the other morning. He prodded her really hard and made her Yelp. I didn't ask him to do that!!

Ds1 told me ds2 said I had told him to hit dd to wake her up.

I called ds2 to check and he said no, that wasn't true, he didn't say that.

Ds1 then storms off after saying he never said ds2 told him that. It's risible because his lies are so easy to counter.

He claims stress but he lies all the time. Generates arguments all the time.

It's actually quite remarkable how he manages to draw me into his argument and I need to just not engage with him at all from now on.

He also smashes up stuff like glass bottles and photo frames in the house. Slamming doors. Damaging furniture.

He gets the rage at least once a week and over reacts to everything.

He bunked off school this morning too. The school is furious and will be taking action.

I just can't be arsed anymore. He causes so much distress and damage over nothing. And he's nerved remorseful. Gives this phony apologies which I have to accept in goodwill.

I've spent £££££s on counseling for him. Different Counsellors who've all said what a lovely, intelligent boy he is. I've not been allowed to say what he's like at home because their relationship is confidential.

[MrsWhisker]

Never not nerved remorseful.

I really think he's a dishonest person.

[JiltedJohnsJulie]

Have you spoken to Pastoral care at school? What have they said?

Have you referred him to CAHMS too?

If you want some advice on how to deal with the lying, the Family Lives Helpline should be able to help you with this.

[MrsWhisker]

Yep referred to CAMHS. Several counsellors. Nothing has helped.

At school, he's okay. Very strong academically.

[BillywilliamV]

I'm afraid it's your job to keep sucking it up until he grows out of it, which he will. Don't stop talking to him though. I know it's hard, but to an extent it's also normal.

[FredaFrogspawn]

What things do you love about him?

[thecatfromjapan]

In what grounds was he referred to CAHMS?

The service is massively over-stretches, so I'm thinking there must be a lot going on here. And there must be acting-out at school.

Family therapy might be the way forward.

If it is truly the case that your son is fabulous in all other situations, then it is the family dynamic that is dysfunctional/stressful - and all the therapy directed at him - in the world won't help.

That is, it's not him as an individual that is the problem - it's how you inter-relate that needs looking at.

None of that is to dismiss what you're saying. It sounds grim and sad.

It's just that you need to put the focus on the problem (relationship), not just accept what is easiest to find (individual counselling for him via CAHMS).

I feel for you. Strife with children is soul-destroying.

[AmaryllisNightAndDay]

I didn't ask him to do that!!

But you did ask him to wake his sister up and he did it, he just poked her a bit too hard and she got cross. Who got angry about the yelp - her? You? You seem to blame him for this accident and that's probably why he is jumping to lies. If he says "you told me to hit her" you don't need a whole forensic investigation, you can just say "you tried a bit too hard, be more gentle next time" end of story. Your aim should be to dial down the drama not ramp it up.

I need to just not engage with him at all from now on.

You need to engage with him but not in the drama. You do sound quite stressy yourself. So you need to think about de-escalation, and calming things down. Two books I found useful - there's a very good section on dealing with lying, Carolyn Webster-Stratton's Incredible Years It's a rather old book and some of it is aimed at younger children but it still applies. And for dialling down the tantrums - though I don't think he's anything like as extreme as the youngsters in this book - have a look at Explosive Child (if nothing else it was reassuring to read about kids who were way worse than mine!)

Have you tried family counselling or perhaps a parenting workshop? You probably wind each other up a lot.

[Pegsinarow]

Hi op. Sorry you are going through this.

I wouldn't get too hung up on honesty per se tbh. He's an intelligent lad and he knows right from wrong. Try typing "why do teenagers lie?" and "why does my teenager lie?" in to Google and you will find lots of useful articles popping up, which demonstrates that it's quite a common phenomenon, and it's not just your ds who does this, for a variety of reasons. Use humour if you can to expose the lies. Or tell him that the lying disappoints you because you feel it comes between you and him and clouds what is really happening to him, which you are interested in. Tell him you still love him however much he fucks up, so there is no need to embellish.

Try not to take his behaviour personally. His current brain development makes him selfish. He can't help it to a large degree. As you have already said, try and disengage and don't get involved in long "debates". He probably hates himself a lot more then he hates you. When he starts arguing to avoid tasks just calmly state your expectations and then disengage. Then tell him once more what you need doing, and be clear about the consequence if it's not done, and follow through. Don't get involved in a constant nag-fest.

For example, if he breaks stuff then he has to mend it or do jobs to pay for it. If he doesn't do that, then his phone is removed, the wi fi goes off, or his allowance is stopped for a bit.

And DO try and keep engaging with him - however difficult it is - in a positive way.
Even if it's just taking him off on his own for a big Mac one day. However much you are fuming, get across to him that you love him, and explain you get cross because you care about him, because the default position of many teens is "everyone hates me". Try and hold on to his good points: he's lovely, intelligent, etc. And try not to get in to a circle of negativity by wiping the slate clean each day with regard to your attitude towards him (you can do this while still insisting he suffers consequences for his actions).

Try reading the first thread in the "holding on to the end of the rope" threads on this teenagers board (there are four of them and the links to the other three are included in the op of thread four).

Your job, however much you feel like disengaging now, is to stand fast and hold on to the end of the rope while he thrashes about on the other end. Now is the time when, however fragile you feel, you need to try and model emotional resilience. And if you can't do that, get yourself some support either through counselling, friends, a new hobby, whatever helps. Hang in there op! It's hell while it is happening but this too shall pass

[MrsWhisker]

Wise words. Thank you.

[MrsWhisker]

@amaryllisnightandday, I asked his younger brother to wake his sister.

Ds1 claimed I'd told younger brother to hit his sister to wake her up. I called him out on it.

Perhaps my post wasn't clear.

I am stressed, yes.

If he doesn't get up for school in time and I have to leave in the car with his younger siblings so they're not late, I know I'll come back to smashed photo frames or glass water bottles. The latest was my sofa cushions lain in a line in a puddle of dog wee and kitchen roll that I was going to clear up as soon as I got back from the school run.

School is 15 minutes walk away. So him being late for the car is not a big catastrophe for him.

[AmaryllisNightAndDay]

Ah right, I missed that, I'm sorry. I can see why you're stressed, it must be really difficult. Pegsinarows advice is very good.

Your DS does sound very volatile so you might also find some of Explosive Child helpful. Some youngsters do react extremely badly to trivial changes in their daily routine and they do need extra support to keep their routine consistent - could he be one of those?

[JiltedJohnsJulie]

I know it might sound a bit obvious but if he’s not getting up, does he have electronics/WiFi at night?

[MrsWhisker]

I'm physically afraid of him. He threatens my younger dcs. He smashes up stuff.

[MrsWhisker]

And when should we expect teens to self regulate with internet use?

[JiltedJohnsJulie]

I can get that totally, my DS is much bigger and stronger than me. I can see why you would be scared if he’s being threatening.

I do think though that the suggestion of some family therapy which was made earlier might be the way to go.

[JiltedJohnsJulie]

And when should we expect teens to self regulate with internet use?

My DS is just coming up to his GCSEs. The internet goes off at 10 pm in the week. He can do what he likes on Friday and Saturday night and when his GCSEs are done.

I wouldn’t expect a 14 yo to self regulate. Especially one who can’t even regulate himself enough to stop lying.

[MrsWhisker]

Been researching family therapy. In the country I live I can't find any.

[CherryPavlova]

I think your fear and anxiety is fuelling the situation. Hes a child. He needs parenting not counselling or referring to CAMHS. He sounds like a slightly truculant but normal lad. Poking his sister is perfectly normal. Siblings goad each other and squabble. Not self regulating his own internet use is normal.
Chill. Enjoy the good bits of him. Search out and reward the positives.

[Springcleanish]

If he has been with CAMHs, then call them up, explain the situation- all of it, especially the being scared of him, and follow up with it all in an email. Ask for family therapy if possible. Speak to your GP and school, they can sometimes speed up referrals, explain all this to them, and whilst you are waiting follow the de-escalation advice here. If your son gets to see a counsellor first, make sure they are fully aware of the ongoing situation at home. The sessions are confidential in that you won’t know what has been discussed, but the counsellor will welcome your regular input, otherwise they will be wondering why your son has been referred if he doesn’t mention his actions.
Most importantly, keep looking after yourself. Good Luck.

[MrsWhisker]

@CherryPavlova he didn't poke his sister.

He said I'd told his younger brother to hit his sister to wake her up.

Does your teenage son smash holes in doors and punch metal cabinets? Does he throw and smash glass water bottles? And picture frames? Weekly? Because he's missed his lift to school?

This is a new normal for me.

[MrsWhisker]

CAMHS Counsellor said he is a wonderful kid. He's pissed off I had more children after him and she blamed me for that.

We don't live in UK anymore

[JiltedJohnsJulie]

Been researching family therapy. In the country I live I can't find any.

I’d do what Slringcleanish says then, that sounds like good advice

Have you spoken to the Family Lives Helpine too? They are open today, I’d give them a call if you haven’t already.

This book may be helpful too. You could always download a sample on the Kindle app to see if you like it before you buy.

[JiltedJohnsJulie]

Just seen that you aren’t in the U.K. anymore so CAHMS and Family Lives are out.

How does he feel about the move? Has he got worse since you left the U.K.?

[JiltedJohnsJulie]

Could you spend some time packing away every single breakable thing or at least those things that you don’t want breaking?

Have you tried taking him out on his own, maybe for lunch or dinner and talking calmly about the affect he’s habing on his siblings and you and asking how he feels?

[Pegsinarow]

I'm physically afraid of him. He threatens my younger dcs. He smashes up stuff.

It's very hard to tell from an internet post and with such scant information about your family etc but this does sound more serious than the usual adolescent angst.

What were you hoping to gain from posting op? (Not being snippy; genuine question.) Were you (understandably) wanting to vent or are you wanting coping strategies?

If there is no family therapy where you live, do you have a partner to hold down the fort while you and your ds go and access help elsewhere? Might it be necessary to stay with a relative in the UK and try and access support for a limited period? Would it be possible to send your son somewhere (some sort of boarding school) to access support outside of the home? W

Or would it be possible to find some sort of mentor for him (sports coach, uncle, male friend of family) who could take him out and show some interest in him and offer advice? Could he get involved in a martial arts group or a boxing club where he could learn to channel his aggression in a more productive way? Could he join some sort of youth group where you are related to the forces (like army cadets in UK)?

Or maybe post your location on here on the 'living overseas' board so other mumsnetters in your country could offer some suggestions?