Page 2 | Done with the disrespect. Have i gone overboard?

(88 Posts)
Nipplesunited Mon 01-May-17 12:40:11

I have been as patient and as understanding as i possibly can do with my son.
I have managed to stop his disrespectful behaviour at home...to a point. Only it seems to have now escalated outside of the home.
School being one of the main points. Its got that bad they dont even feel he is capable of mainstream school anymore. They are containing him until he has been statemented.

Regardless of any underlying issue - there is no excuse for rude and disrespectful behaviour.
I have had enough now.

I have disconnected his xbox and removed internet from any of his devices.
I am currently buying out of his phone contract (on hold) because hes not able to stay within its limits.

My plan is he gets absolutely no form of internet access or easy way to communicate with his friends. Until there is a massive improvement.

I havent gone over the top have i?

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1nsanityscatching Mon 01-May-17 15:48:54

ASD shows itself in Secondary because there is so much more pressure in social terms and there isn't the consistency of having one teacher in one classroom.
Dd has ASD diagnosed when she was two and Secondary,even with a statement in place,is a huge challenge. I imagine that she appears spoilt to the ignorant but in actual fact her anxiety is sky high which makes even the smallest of issues a mountain.
We are currently discussing cookery, she can't cook what everybody else is because she can't cope with mince (sensory issue) she doesn't want to do the alternative and can choose whatever she wants to cook instead.Trouble is free choice is so difficult for her and she is stressed out about it and probably won't cook at all. Of course it will be seen as her being spoilt but it's anxiety at the root of it all.

1nsanityscatching Mon 01-May-17 15:58:40

Feelings and anger will probably difficult for him to understand and so he will refuse because it's so difficult for him. Dd is 14 and still can't recognise beyond happy and not happy in spite of having support since she wasn't even two years old.
It is incredibly difficult, he needs a full assessment of his difficulties because you can't really address issues without having an accurate picture of his needs and any underlying difficulties first.
Have you spoken to your GP and asked for a referral to an ASD diagnostic service as CAMHS can be hit and miss depending on your area?

Nipplesunited Mon 01-May-17 15:59:44

It definitely sounds similar and makes sense with the move over to secondary being a trigger to make it come to the surface.

My son doesnt struggle socially, he is quite popular. I have noticed he can become obsessed with specific groups. Eventually he will move on to another group and the obsession will move to those.

I completely understand the free choice causing anxiety as i struggle with that myself.

My daughter has been diagnosed with sensory processing disorder and there are a lot of similarities between them both. My son isnt as extreme as my daughter and can manage better socially which is why i think people struggled to see the similarities.

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Nipplesunited Mon 01-May-17 16:03:20

In primary he was seeing camhs. They discharged him.for a fresh start and claimed they saw no issues other than he was prone to risk taking which could be worrying.

He is a lovely, lovely boy to talk to. Well mannered, thoughtful and caring. Until he doesnt understand something. Camhs never got to see that side so never seen the issue first hand.

Despite this previous referral going through, on lesser grounds than now. They are knocking the referral back. Even after an appeal.
His sister has SPD and the school are just containing him. Nobody can understand why they are refusing to accept the referral. We will keep at it and get there eventually as you are completely right. We need to know his needs in order to address them correctly.

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4yoniD Mon 01-May-17 16:09:13

Random thought for 1nsanityscatching - could you substitute lentils or Quran mince so she can cook the same thing? Quote mince is a totally different texture to mince but cooks about the same.

4yoniD Mon 01-May-17 16:09:52

Sorry, Quorn- mobile autocorrect!

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WandaOver Mon 01-May-17 16:21:23

He is always out and about. With friends or a supervising adult? If he's only 12 I'd be concerned about him going out alone and potentially getting into trouble.
I'd be more inclined to ground him than taking away the gadgets. At least you know what he's doing at home.

Nipplesunited Mon 01-May-17 16:33:28

Both wandaover but he is obsessed with friends. When i do have him out he does nothing but moan, complain and make things frustrating for everyone involved. We have just got back from a weekend away and it wasnt very enjoyable because he just wanted to be home to see his friends.

I would prefer grounding too, but the last time i did that he jumped out of my bedroom window. He has asked me to ground him instead which made me think the internet thing gets to him, so i stuck with it - without him knowing, its more so that i didnt need to deal with him pulling a stunt like that again.

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WandaOver Mon 01-May-17 17:10:52

Do you know the friends or their parents? Is he at someone's house or hanging about? Is there any danger there are drugs involved?
I only pick up on that because your description reminds me of a boy who was DS2s year.

Nipplesunited Mon 01-May-17 17:20:42

With this new group there is a possibility he will have access to likes of cannabis. This is a new group he has just went to, and i am not sure on any of the parents.

This is the first group of friends he has had where i have known so little.

His behaviour has stayed roughly the same throughout different groups of friends. Sometimes i get more attitude, like this group he is with now - i get the feeling its not going to be an easy ride. This could be due to me not having any idea about their parents though?

Its one of the reasons im so eager to get his phone and block internet access. It would mean he cant contact them so easily

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Shockers Mon 01-May-17 17:36:38

I think you will see a difference after a couple of Internet free weeks.

I work in a PRU. Access to inappropriate material on the internet is one of our major concerns. Not usually porn, more horror, violence and even historical true life stuff, like murder and war crime. I also worry a lot about XBOX live and who they might be chatting to.

Astro55 Mon 01-May-17 17:51:09

Sign in to your internet router and change the password - no need to have his phone -

If it's in contract he'll have 4G

What's his diet like?

Nipplesunited Mon 01-May-17 18:14:43

His diet is varied. Somedays he can eat great, other days food takes a backseat with him.

I need his phone to take his sim card after hes ran the bill up to £55. I told him if he went over his bill once more that would be the end of it. He did, so its going.

He will get another all in good time but it will be pay as you go. I also need to follow through because i said i would do this

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CloudPerson Mon 01-May-17 18:46:27

Having been through very similar with two boys now (11 and 16), both ASD/PDA, I would offer different advice (but I expect, in a thread where everyone has agreed with the punishment route for it to go down like a lead balloon grin)

He sounds like a real mix of my two boys. The sociability of ds2, the obnoxiousness of ds1.
IMO (bearing in mind I can only go by what you've written), you suspect ASD, and there must be a very real possibility of this or other SEN for school to be considering an EHCP, it's very possible that the behaviour after school is the overflow following a day at school (coke bottle effect - shaken up throughout the day, it's only once home that the lid comes off)
You may find that the punishments you're suggesting make no difference, as DC with ASD can have great difficulty in understanding consequences, and he may assume you're stealing his things and the behaviour you're trying to modify will be increased, it may also be denying him a valuable way to wind down, the importance of which cannot be underestimated.

Ds1's speciality is disrespectful behaviour, but we have eventually worked out that this is his version of a meltdown, punishing has zero effect, the only thing that helps is to understand how awful he is feeling at those points and offer support or stay out of his way.
Once calm, we can talk about it, before that point he can't hear us or take in what we're saying.

Ds2 is the one who pushes boundaries constantly, we have learnt that pushing back makes him more defiant and difficult, and what works best is teaching him (and us) to compromise - the book The Explosive Child is excellent for this. The thing is, if he's never going to listen, it's better to show him that you can listen to him as well. With us it does mean being prepared to accept that ds simply cannot accept rules that he doesn't see the point of (but this is the PDA side).

As for the phone, this is something you could use as a bargaining tool, as he'll see the benefit. I wouldn't have a child on any sort of contract, but you could offer a fixed sum every week (£5? - £10?) reliant on him at least trying not to,be disrespectful to you.

If he's disrespectful in school, he may not understand why you're punishing him at home as well.
I would talk to teachers and tell them how you handle it and what works, the rest is up to them (I have a NT daughter, we handle things differently with her because it works! I'm not a pandering parent, we've just learnt what our boys need us to do and do that).

He sounds so similar to my boys that I'm going to suggest you look up PDA (pathological demand avoidance), but it may be way off the mark. If it is though, you'll be better able to help him knowing what it is and having a few strategies up your sleeve.

CloudPerson Mon 01-May-17 18:47:05

Bloody hell, that was long, sorry blush

Astro55 Mon 01-May-17 19:04:11

I'd agree he has the traits

Not liking change
Unable to see what he's done
Arguing right from wrong
Obsessive
Destructive
Anxiety

With HFA he's should enable to cope with school work

But the changes in friendship groups is difficult - because he was closeted in junior school

Now they don't have to sit with the same kids - others will have different viewpoints and it becomes a social nightmare -

Keep pushing for a referral - go to the GP see what they might suggest

1nsanityscatching Mon 01-May-17 20:54:10

It's quite difficult to advise because you haven't yet got any sort of reason for his behaviour but to me I'd guess ASD is a possibility. I have ds and dd with ASD (as well as others who don't) and for us punishments have never really been part of managing behaviour.
Ds would have upped any undesirable behaviour if he felt punished because he felt injustice deeply and would have needed to even the score. It worked better when he was rewarded for any positive step he made.
For dd her high anxiety means she tries always to be good so when she doesn't manage it it's not for a lack of trying more through misunderstanding the situation and what was expected or required or that her anxiety is so high she can't comply or she takes flight.
Your son might not even realise he's being disrespectful, dd is better now but at times her brutal honesty has been pretty disrespectful because it took a while for her to grasp that she didn't need to say out loud everything she thought and sometimes, even when you are right, you shouldn't argue the toss in some situations especially in school. Even now she still doesn't grasp the merits of a white lie.
I'd say that school work isn't quite as simple when you have ASD as you might imagine. Dd is in the top ten percent of her year but it takes a huge amount of support to keep her engaged and learning. Lessons throw up sensory issues, changes to seating plans or supply teachers mean she has few resources left for learning. Different rules and teaching methods from different teachers and in different lessons mean she feels constantly wrong footed and that's without considering her processing issues, the social demands or curriculum content. In theory she should do really well academically in practise it takes 1 to 1 support and a huge amount of input from home just to keep her in school.
I can feel for you OP because at times ds in particular has pushed me to the edge but I can also feel for your ds because he probably isn't in control of his behaviour, he's probably confused and anxious and questioning himself for finding some things impossible when others find them so easy.

Nipplesunited Mon 01-May-17 23:28:36

Thank you for all sharing your own experiences. It helps to remind me that there is an underlying issue, even though it hasnt yet been diagnosed.

Also reminding me to see from my sons view and how he could be feeling during these times.

I have looked up PDA and it makes a lot of sense.

He has been trying to get me to give up the wifi for the past hour now. Going from nice as pie to nasty and verbally abusive.

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CloudPerson Mon 01-May-17 23:55:31

If PDA makes sense I would have a look at the website The PDA resource, lots of helpful links there with ideas and strategies.

I would also seriously consider dropping the punishments, as they're not likely to teach anything constructive. Find ways that will work with who he is.

Nipplesunited Tue 02-May-17 00:09:23

Thank you. I will do.
I agree with the punishments. Im stuck on how to handle it though as the internet isnt just a punishment - i really dont feel its beneficial for him to have the access he has been having.

Any suggestions on how i can manage it or what i should/could do would be greatly appreciated

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Astro55 Tue 02-May-17 00:15:20

if there is an underlying issue then punishments just don't work

It's like punishing a toddler a week after then event

They need to knelt he rules before they are broken - very clear and fair

However you can't possibly make a rule for every eventuality!'

Stock frazes

'I don't like the way you are speaking to me' then ignore

Don't get angry - be calm - be reasonable - model the behaviour you want

He will ask a hundred questions same thing - said in a different way

can I have the wifi, when can I have the wifi, Dave has wifi, yourba horrible mum, I hate you, please canninahve it now?? Repeat

Breath - stay calm - try to ignore the constant questions

'I have explained you can have it back when you haven't been in trouble at school for a week -

It's bloody hard work!! Don't give up!!

Nipplesunited Tue 02-May-17 00:33:59

I have mastered the staying calm bit to an extent. It just doesnt work at all with him if you raise your voice. He goes into instant defense.
When he realises im not backing down and starts spiralling its either the house that gets it or he takes it out verbally on me or my younger two - I can handle verbal abuse directed at me, but with the little ones i struggle to remain calm at that point.

Tonight..i had a small melt down after he called his 8 year old brother a twat, and then gathered myself again and said "its late. I have found myself engaged in an arguement and i dont feel either of us want that. How about we rest and discuss this further tomorrow. I am going to bed now. Goodnight, love you"
It worked.

Thank you. It is such hard work.

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BlueChairs Tue 02-May-17 00:41:20

Dont feel too harsh - my brother has no phone, no xbox, no tablet, no money, no outings with friends because of similar behaviour - he is 13 - he needs to understand he is at fault and it is unacceptable. i was once grounded because i forgot my school notebook - i would be under the ground for his behaviour xxx
good luck x

Astro55 Tue 02-May-17 07:22:33

It's not 'fault' it's a condition - if diagnosed - that he can't help

They don't see the world the same

Nipplesunited Tue 02-May-17 08:17:33

Ny biggest fear in all of this is what if he isnt diagnosed with anything and he is just this way

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