OMG - I need help

[assumpta]

I will try to keep short and summarise. About mid July my dd1 age 16 found a hand written note in dd 2 bedroom 13.5years. Dd2 proceeded to rip it up and put it in her bin, I stuck it back together when she was at school and I literally felt sick. It was a paragraph of filth, explicit descriptions of what she would do with a boy. We asked her about it and took her phone to check it. Her BBM's were full of filthy conversations with boys, none of who she actually knows face to face. She denied everything, said she had been forced into doing it etc., yet would not give any details, would not talk or look at us etc., etc., we found photos and videos on her phone of teenage boys. We found that she had been doing stuff throu Skype. She was chasing them as well as them contacting her. We removed pone, laptop, etc etc., talked till we were blue in the face. Said she could talk to us openly, we never shouted, ranted or raved. She had a 'boyfriend' that she used to meet locally, but he went to school miles away. There was never anything bad from him. I checked all communication. I was broken hearted and explained this. She promised never again. We took the softly, softly, caring, we love you and want to keep ou safe route. She said we could trust her, so we did. She had done it again and I discovered it on wednesday morning. We haven't gone softly this time, and said that we will not tolerate this disgusting behaviour. I feel so, betrayed, tricked and stupid.

I have been reading up. I know her horomones are raging. Could she have a bad horomones balance, maybe too much testosterone? She is tall, and skinny, but very strong. She does have quite a lot of body hair, it thought this may be hereditary as my dh is quite hairy. Any advice?

I need to go to get dd1 now, but will be back to check here in an hour or so. I hope some one can advise me. Please.

[Fiona24]

Hi assumpta

You're naturally feeling ghastly about this - I would, too. Sounds like you've handled this very well in the most trying circumstances. You say she'd done it again - what has she done again. Is her laptop etc still in your possession?

You're dead right about her hormones and to think that there may be a possibility of some imbalance BUT don't jump to that conclusion just yet. I'd favour persisting, however trying it is, with the calm approach. The last thing you want - or she needs - is a loud slanging match. (Oh, yes, I speak from experience, except that I have DSs and these were about different issues - but I sometimes regret loosing my rag and shouting. I've since read on these threads wise words about detachment and they've really helped me a lot ..)

You need advice and support. Could you speak to someone (I hesitate to suggest the GP but yours may be a very suitable person to speak to). I think I'd want to speak to the GP or someone with perhaps a specialist knowledge of young girls growing up with my DH or on my own first - though others may suggest otherwise.

Hang on in there - and do something nice for yourself today.

Others with DDs will no doubt have much more helpful things to suggest!

[cjel]

It may all seem normal to her for some reason and I wouldn't rule out that at some point she may have been made to do some of these things,Does her school have a school counsellor? they will be best able to help you. I also would try and keep her safe and continue to go along those lines, If she has been coerced she will need support to break free.xx

[assumpta]

Fiona- we asked her to be open and honest with us, and to tell us if she needed or wanted to change her password on her phone, or laptop etc., so we would be able to get into it if we felt we needed to, or wanted to, if any of these boys contacted her again, or if she felt that someone was give her inappropriate attention. We explained that we would not read any messages from her girlfriends and that we understood if she had been initially led down this path, that it wasn't her fault, but that it was really wrong. Regarding her blackberry, we got rid of bbm, and got her a completely new number so none of these boys could contact her. When i managed to prise her phone off her on wednesday, she had told me a wrong password to get into it and was desperately trying to clear her phone. I then knew that something was wrong. The only way we managed to get it from her was by actually ringing the local police station so she could see we were serious. I then went in and read the messages from 3 lads; horrible. She had been chasing them and they were gladly participating. She had been leaving her phone downstairs at bed time, but then brought it up one night. I was not comfortable with this but dh thought it would be ok. I insisted that we acknowledged that we knew she had it with her, and she said, dont you trust me? Dh said ok that he did trust her. Thinking that he did trust her, as we had told her all the dangers, etc we let her have the phone.

My dh confronted her. I couldnt, as i was so sad that she had deceived me. I had asked her during the days before if everything was still ok, and she was all smiles, saying yes, all fine.

I had been blaming myself, wondering what i did wrong. We had aplogised for not been up to date on all the technology so we could protect her. We explained that everyone has done things that they are not proud of, and that we would start over with a clean sheet.

We listened when she would talk, but she normally just shuts down and won't even look at us when we speak to her. Yesterday, I calmly insisted that she looked at me when I was speaking. I gave her two telephone numbers, one for the rape crisis centre and one for women's refuge, explaining if she continued down this route that the chances are that she will put herself into a situation that she could be raped, and also if she doesn't learn how to form normal relationships, the chances are that she may end up with people that don't treat her very nice. I also said that what she was doing, disgusted me, and that I was ashamed and embarrassed by it. She had deceived me and upset me deeply. She gave no response. We were out with friends last night with her and they have children who are all friends. We all had fun. I explained this morning that her focus shoud be having fun with her girl friends and that there is plenty time for boys when she is older, more mature, and able to manage a relationship responsibly.

CJL - I gave the benefit of the doubt of her being led or trapped, but this proves otherwise. She had a new number, so they could not have contacted her first without her giving them her number.

The school councillor is a young girl, who from listening to another friend is of no real help at all.

[JuliaScurr]

assumpta your dd will not 'put herself in a situation where she could be raped'. She would only be raped if a rapist decided to rape her, irrelevant of what she did. You are right that her hormones are raging; she's experimenting. Try //youngminds.org if you think her behaviour is out of the ordinary.

[lljkk]

Her BBM's were full of filthy conversations with boys, none of who she actually knows face to face.

Well that's a huge relief.
I think you're over-reacting, tbh.
It's bad but it's not that bad. Deception and Foolish fantasy is still preferable to real life promiscuity. Keeping lines of communication open is one of the most valuable things you can do. You need to understand what she gets out of this that she can't satisfy in other ways.

[assumpta]

They seem to be the same age, and I dont know if they know how old she is. That is a very good point actually.

We have explained that they could be older boys or men, and just because they say they are 14, that actually means nothing.

Although she may be 'experimenting' she knows how badly this can go wrong. You only have to read a newspaper or listen to the news to know this, and she does both. We have told her all of this too. She knows that her reputation could be ruined and has said that she doesn't want her friends to find out. I will look at youngminds. Thank you

[assumpta]

Lljkk, i do agree it is better than actually doing it, but she talks about meeting some of them, but maybe that is fantasy too. The thing is, it would be feasible for her to do this if she decided to.

So do you think we should say nothing then and see what happens, and if it gets out from someone who knows someone, then it is down to her to suffer the consequences?

[cjel]

just because she gave her number this time doesn't mean she wasn't coerced in the beginning.
Don't take the word of one friend who presumably had a different issue that the school counsellor is no good.
School counsellor will not be young girl. It takes 4 years to train. Give her a go.
What she is doing may not be making her happy and you telling her she disgusts you and giving her nos. which suggest she is a failure is not going to help.
She is a child and for whatever reason has got into behaviour you don't like. it takes a lot of guts for a child to admit her problems and you sound as if you are more worried about reputations and her future as an abused woman than what is wrong now as a child.

[assumpta]

I agree that she may have been coerced in the first instance. Unfortunately, she didn't admit her problems, we found out.

I didn't say that she disgusted me, but that what she was doing did. I am definitely worried about reputations; hers. I am afraid that what is wrong now as a child will develop into more if we don't spell it out fairly bluntly. I am not saying at all that it is right, but after the first time, I thought it was the right thing to say.

The councillor is a girl in her early/mid 20's, so, yes, not young, young.

[cjel]

I do understand and having had a teenage daughter and now granddaughter don't underestimate your difficulty. I'd just keep talking to her once doesn't do it, if it wasn't a problem she would have been sharing what she was doing with you all along. Don't worry about tomorrow - I'm sure all teenager do something that could lead to worst case scenario but never do, Concentrate all efforts to become someone she will confide in.
If counsellor is in mid 20s she will be able to help.

[assumpta]

Ok, thank you.

[breadandbutterfly]

I think girls at that age like male attention - she presumably feels grown-up, 'cool', desired, chatting with these lads, which is the appeal.

You're right to stay calm - try not to see her behaviour as 'bad' but as inappropriate and potentially dangerous - it's not a moral issue, it's a safety issue (and probably a self-esteem issue too). Your dd needs her self-esteem being raised so that she doesn't need to get it this way. She needs to stay in touch with real friends male or female, so she can get validated by her peers not random boys. Try to up her real social life and be positive to her.

Meanwhile, cut all her phone use - she's shown she cannot yet be trusted to use it appropriately. Likeqise, limit other privileges, as she did deliberately lie to you and go behind your back. But sexuality is natural and you don't want her to feel sex is 'dirty' - but her behaviour is inappropriate. Particularly, once these messages are out there, they cannot be recalled, and can be used to blackmail her or bully her in future (esp if she doesn't want her friends seeing them). Help her to see sexual contact as positive but in the context of a relationship, and when older. Real, casual sexual contact carries real risks that you understand but she does not yet appreciate eg pregnancy, stds etc.

She will appreciate and accept the boundaries being laid down firmly. I think at this age, the media is so sexualised that many girls do think that being hyper-sexualised is 'normal'. This is an error of understanding and judgement, but not a moral failing, so try to help her rather than make her feel guilty or dirty. The only thing she has done wrong that is a moral issue is lie to you - and that she can be disciplined for. But go easy - if you want her to have the courage to tell you the truth in future.

[assumpta]

Butterfly - thank you for that. You do speak sense.

She is a quiet child, she has lots of friends and is invited to every birthday party, but lacks self confidence, which I think a lot of teenagers do. She is tall, slim and pretty.

I firstly was disgusted that she could write such things. When we spoke to her, she denied it saying a friend has written it. I felt so relieved, but we then had to find out what 'friend'. I went through everyone that had been for a sleepover in order that I could be aware for again, and if I needed to let their parents know. When we explained why we needed to know and potentially do, she admitted it was her. She then said she was made do it, we didn't say we didn't believe her, but it was written in beautiful, unrushed hand writing, that I could see it took time to write. We then took her phone and found bbm messages, photos and videos. We dated everything we could and any bbm I.d.'s that we could. She was giving us no information whatsoever. We said we were there to protect her, love her and keep her safe. All of this was our main priority. We explained that we realised she may have been drawn into it and didn't know how to get out, be it due to fear or otherwise. We explained about everything now being available for everyone to see. Just because someone says they won't do something, does not mean they won't. She could be blackmailed, tell us, she could be threatened, tell us, she may be contacted again, tell us, something weird from someone else may be sent to her, tell us. All said in a very calm manner. We told her she can talk to us about anything, it doesn't matter, we can try to sort things out for her. We reiterated all the time about keeping her safe and sound. We got rid of bbm, or so we thought, we changed her mobile number. A week later we found that she had bbm, the phone company had not said it would take 28 days.

She had a 'boyfriend'. We met him, and had seen all his texts, all very innocent. He was in the year below her at a different school and quite far away.

It is now because she has made contact with these people again, and given her details to them, and barefaced lied to me about not having contact with anyone she shouldn't, that breaks my heart. I want to trust her, and I had, I just can't at the moment. Her new 'boyfriend' is the first boyfriends friend, from the same area and school.

She has a big love of horses and we arranged through a friend to loan a horse. This was all done before I found out the second time. We had been boosting her confidence, encouraging her to see her girl friends, as always. Asking if she wanted have friends over for sleepovers etc. everything we have always done, but reiterating it. Explained that this pony was her benefiting so much from her help, he was moved to a bigger stable, he got more love and exercise, she was caring for him and it made her so happy. We had said how happy she seemed now he had come I to her life. We asked was everything still ok with her phone etc., had anyone contacted her? She said no, all fine. We were so happy for her.

Then it blew up on Wednesday etc., etc. we have now explained again how wrong and unsafe that it is. We also added that her trust has to be earned, treats have to be earned and that the horse that she has has to be earned. It's not cheap, it's quite a drive away there and back 4 times a day, but we are more than willing to do it if she is now truthful with us. That may all be wrong, but it is what we have said. She is out with a friend today and having her over for a sleepover.

We know this time she was actually speaking to them at all hours, not just texting, but prearranged so 'dirty/erotic conversations could be had, at times when we were asleep.

We can take everything, phone, laptop, boyfriends, but in the long run, she has access to all of this technology outside the house. We need her to know what she is doing is wrong because it is not safe, not just NOT doing it because we say so.

I am not sure whether to tell her about stuff that happened to me when I was 13 through to about 15/16, at the hands of a in-law, but it would also mean telling my older dd who is 16, and knows everything that is happening with her sister. She would be upset that something like that happened to me. I would however rather some upset and them to be aware. What do you think?

I feel tired, it is always on my mind and I know, in the long run, it is only she that can stop it.

[assumpta]

I only added the first line, as I realise all of this does not matter a jot to how I, or any normal adult would feel, but it is different for teenagers.

[paperlantern]

If my mum saw some of the chat room messages I was sending at 13, she would have been shocked. thankfully she never did abd it was a phase I grew out of.

personally you could go down the banning route, certainly I would ban access to intrrnet and stop paying for her phone. but personally think education may be more effective.

if she is giving out real name age dob or school, that needs to stop. I'd look for internet safety courses that she could go on.

the pictures are a bigger concern. woman's hour recent did a massive segment on revenge porn, get her to listen to that

[paperlantern]

there's a thread in relationships that you ought to show her. thing is she thinks it's harmless and if she's lucky it will be but she needs to work out for herself that their are far bigger dangers than her reputation

[breadandbutterfly]

I had a similar but milder experience with my same-aged dd a few months back (and asked the v helpful MN jury what to do then too!) hence my thought-out views on this!

I was less upset about the sexual content - after all, they are going to learn at some point, and an interest in sex is natural - but was livid she'd ignored cyber-safety rules, that we and her school had clearly explained, and potentially put herself at risk. So we came down quite heavily and even now (several months later) she has not got back internet access on her phone so no free messaging. I put small amounts of money on her phone only for texting and her internet use is also now v curtailed.

Because of your experiences, the sexual content is going to worry and upset you more, but sexual thoughts at that age are natural and not in themselves a problem, it's the fact that she could be setting up expectations for real sexual activity that she might not wish to actually happen that puts her at risk, as well as the risk of those receiving these messages possibly using them to blackmail or bully her in the future. I don't think you need to share your experiences with your dds unless you want to; understandably, it underlies your worry, but unless you have reason to assume there was coercion, it may not really be what you need to worry about here. I think my dd - whilst initially furious her phone privileges were being removed - has totally understood we were acting in her best interests. We've talked a lot about normal boy-girl relations and how pop music, the media, etc makes it sound as though everyone is having sex all the time with everyone else - but actually they're not. With the availability of porn on the internet now, kids do get the wrong end of the stick, understandably - you don't want your dd to feel bad for attracting boys or being interested in sex, but she needs to be sensible so she doesn't put herself at risk. When you are 100% sure she has grasped this - and not before - loosen the reins a bit. But actually teens can live without phones and certainly without flash ones that can do messaging like BBM - yes, it will harm her social life, but should focus her mind on the need to think before she texts.

As to when or if you share your experience with your dds, that's a different matter - in some ways I'd be inclined not to share it now, as it implies a connection which isn't there - unless you suspect coercion, in which case of case it is rather more relevant.

As dd1 is on your side on this, could you get her to chat to dd2 about her behaviour and why it's not appropriate? It might come better from someone nearer her own age who she doesn't think of as 'out of touch' or worrying unnecessarily?

[breadandbutterfly]

When I say 'less upset about the sexual content', I mean less upset to find my dd knew about and was writing about sex per se - I was very upset and cross that she was putting down in potentially permanent electronic form these thoughts and sending them to a boy she hardly knew. Just to clarify...

[breadandbutterfly]

Try to think of it as all part of the learning process of how to behave appropriately in the adult world. It's more of a minefield than it was in our day - then it was simply 'nice girls don't. Third-wave feminism sends conflicting messages, that women can put out to men and be overtly sexual, but are 'empowered' by doing so, in control of their sexuality etc. Second-wave feminism would just see them as exploited. I discovered in my soul searching that I'm probably more of a second-wave feminist, but teenage girls these days, in the era of Rihanna, Katie price etc, can be forgiven for finding the boundaries between empowerment and exploitation somewhat confusing!

[assumpta]

Dd2 has explained all of this too.

With your dd, was it just words or pictures also? With mine, it is words, photos from them, skyped images of her and them, and also talking to them one to one, which really is horrible! I didn't find any Images of her, and she says not, but that is difficult for me to believe. This time she thought it was safer talking than texting, from what I can see, but to be honest there are pieces missing and she is telling me nothing, so it's guess work.

Relationsips, normal and abnormal are everywhere, from song lyrics to high school musical, victorious, good luck Charlie, everywhere.

I wish that I could just say or show her one thing that would actually hit one hard about the dangers, rather than we saying some of this and some of that. I need something really hard hitting. I did show her a utube short film, after time one, which scared the crap out of me, but she obviously isn't scared or bothered. I have asked if they know our address or her school etc., she says no, but she also has a major lying problem.

I feel beaten.

[assumpta]

What is the relationship thread that I should show her?

[assumpta]

I also should have said that one reason I was thinking of telling what happened to me, happened without me wanting or chasing after it, which is what she seems to be doing.

The fact she is talking one to one is now freaking me out the more I think about it.

[paperlantern]

dh is talking to (or looking at I forget which) children online.

[cjel]

No don't tell her what happened to you, it will mean no more than a general warning - she has heard of dangers and is choosing to ignore them. I am so sorry that this seems to have triggered your past feelings about these things, try not to let your history cloud the way you talk to your dd.
I'm not sure that she isn't being coerced still and just has fallen for the rubbish she is being told. are you sure it was her who suggested talking not texting for example? It may be time to seek outside help? people who are used to dealing with tis type of thing>

I hope you can get some peace and find the support you need.x