Advanced search

Royal style & gossip: strawberries, serves and sartorial splendour - anyone for tennis?

(980 Posts)
QueenOfTheAndals Thu 27-Jun-19 10:27:31

Previous thread

BlingLoving Fri 28-Jun-19 11:39:34

But the Dukes of Kent and Gloucester got their titles from their fathers originally didn't they?

I assume it's something in the way the dukedom is conferred. But I've never seen the actual notices/letters patent/whatever and even if I did, I'm not sure I'd understand the detail.

BlingLoving Fri 28-Jun-19 11:43:39

Okay, quick google:

The Queen issued a Letters Patent to change William's title following his wedding, granting him "and the heirs male of his body lawfully begotten the dignities of Baron Carrickfergus, Earl of Strathearn, and Duke of Cambridge

So yes, it is now a hereditary title and either George gets them all or they get passed around. But only the boys. Fuckers.

BlingLoving Fri 28-Jun-19 11:46:25

It's all very well Charlotte being in the line of succession, but I honestly don't understand this massive issue with making it so that girls can inherit titles. I'm not wild about the fact that it's not being acted retrospectively (ie to make Anne higher up) but I do see the point (arguably, it could then be suggested the queen is not the legitimate queen currently, for example), but why if we can have a queen if a daughter happens to be born first can we not have a duchess or whatever too. Argh....!!!!! And while I find Andrew's grubbing for his daughters' unpleasant, I do wonder if this annoys him too.

Having said that, assuming Beatrice has a boy before Andrew dies, that child would be the heir to the York dukedom one assumes? Or, for that matter, Eugenie's boy would be heir UNTIL Beatrice had one who would usurp his cousin?

BlingLoving Fri 28-Jun-19 11:48:50

Sorry, one last thing - this on Duke of York, "The Duke of York title has a unique history in that only in its first creation did the title pass directly from father to son (this happened twice) – every other Duke of York has either inherited the throne (thereby absorbing the Duke of York title into the other titles of the crown) or passed away without any male heirs to take the title on."

Suggests that once William becomes King, Dukedom of Cambridge would disappear.

Inniu Fri 28-Jun-19 12:03:52

The Title Duke of York would not pass to Bea/Eug son without letters parent but if Andy remarried and had a son he would become Duke of York on his fathers death.

SenecaFalls Fri 28-Jun-19 12:06:51

But the Dukes of Kent and Gloucester got their titles from their fathers originally didn't they?

Yes, but their fathers got those titles by being created royal dukes by their father George V, in much the same way that Andrew was made Duke of York by the Queen.

The Letters Patent making him Duke of York make no provision for the title to pass through women, but to “heirs male of his body.”

AnneEyhtMeyer Fri 28-Jun-19 12:18:34

There's no way Meghan will ever present trophies at Wimbledon whoever wins. It doesn't work like that. The Duke of Kent presents them. When he retires Kate will present them as she is earmarked to take over from him.

BlingLoving Fri 28-Jun-19 12:24:13

Seneca - I'm trying not to grind my teeth at the archaic misogyny of this stuff. But it's hard.

SenecaFalls Fri 28-Jun-19 12:32:33

I agree Bling. And that the children of male children of the monarch are HRH, but not the children of female children of the monarch. This situation required George VI to issue special LPs so that Charles and Anne would be Prince and Princess at birth.

QueenOfTheAndals Fri 28-Jun-19 12:39:16

That's right re DoY @BlingLoving, the last time it was passed on was, I think, during the Wars of the Roses! I think the current royal dukedoms all date from George VI's generation. None of Queen Victoria's sons' dukedoms continued into the present day, as far as I know, though there might be an earldom that was inherited by a daughter?

QueenOfTheAndals Fri 28-Jun-19 12:42:29

It's fun reading about the non-royal dukedoms though, as they can be inherited by the closest male relative, who could be anyone. The current Duke of Atholl was, I think, an accountant in South Africa when a distant cousin died, and now he's a duke with his own private army. Downton's got nothing on that story!

BlingLoving Fri 28-Jun-19 12:53:25

@queen - I just went down a wiki hole. Apparently they have the titles but no cash, and based on where they live and career, clearly that's still the case. The previous duke gave away all the land etc just before he died to prevent the new duke, who died a few years ago, getting it. How utterly bizarre.

GotToGoMyOwnWay Fri 28-Jun-19 14:10:13

Makes you wonder what will happen once all the royal dukedoms have been used - I assume make some more? Is that even possible?

Over to my more learned friends grin

AdaColeman Fri 28-Jun-19 14:19:06

It is the person who holds the title, not the title itself, which is "Royal". So once the title has passed beyond the grandson of a monarch it ceases to be "Royal".

DevonUkelele Fri 28-Jun-19 14:37:44

Nothing constructive to add. But this stuff about dukedoms/royal dukedoms/titles/how they descend/where they land is great.

Some of it I am across, but much I am not.

Keep it coming, those who know - it's fascinating.

mumdom Fri 28-Jun-19 14:44:46

My neighbour is the heir to a very ancient title currently held by his great uncle. He’s a surveyor in an estate agency. We all live cheek by jowl in terraced houses, some of it housing trust! His wife grew up locally and is absolutely dreading taking over the castle and farms plural that go with the title. It’s not like a lottery win.

desertgirl Fri 28-Jun-19 14:52:25

It’s not just any random male relative, the male relative still has to be the direct descendant in the male line (‘heirs male of his body’) from whoever the title was granted to. So titles do die out.... but the longer they have been around the more chance there is that there is some distant cousin out there with a claim. Must be incredibly frustrating if you’re a daughter, especially if there is property tied to the title....

theaccidentaleconomist Fri 28-Jun-19 14:59:17

So what would happen if George or Louis eventually decided to marry their boyfriends-or Charlotte her girlfriend? Would their spouses have any titles at all?

If letters patent were issued to give them a title what possible titles might they get?

SenecaFalls Fri 28-Jun-19 15:05:40

The same sex marriage question is an interesting one. I think that new Letters Patent might be needed to address that.

CurlyWurlyTwirly Fri 28-Jun-19 15:21:01

I would love one of the Cambridge children to have a same sex marriage.
I reckon George would be King with a Prince Consort;
Charlotte would be The Princess Royal with a Countess wife (akin to the Earldom normally handed out)
Prince Louis; Duke of X would probably also be married to an Earl.

CurlyWurlyTwirly Fri 28-Jun-19 15:22:54

Then Charlotte’s children would be Lords and Ladies and the Princes would also have princes/ esses

Inniu Fri 28-Jun-19 15:23:07

George entering a same sex marriage could be very problematic unless the Church of England changes its teaching.

AdaColeman Fri 28-Jun-19 15:28:19

What would be the view of a royal heir born via a surrogate mother?

AdaColeman Fri 28-Jun-19 15:35:17

I think I can hear Stanley Baldwin turning in his grave! grin

ElspethFlashman Fri 28-Jun-19 15:46:56

There was a surrogate baby born to the grandchild of that Duke that has the zoo.... Oh what's his name.... The horrible one who kept "wifelets".

But it wasn't the heir, it was the spare. The mother discovered during her first pregnancy that it could literally kill her at any time, so was told no more pregnancies so they went to the US for a surrogate as the laws are strict there. In other words, the surrogate can't claim the child like in the UK.

Meanwhile, they are estranged from the Duke and (original) Duchess cos the son has the audacity to marry a black woman, even though they had literally grown up together. It was all utterly dreadful.

ElspethFlashman Fri 28-Jun-19 15:47:39

That makes no sense - the grandchild was born by surrogate I meant!

ElspethFlashman Fri 28-Jun-19 15:49:11


Thank god, that was driving me crazy!

Spudlet Fri 28-Jun-19 16:23:24

The Marquess of Bath! Who also evicted his younger brother from the estate after their father died - telling him he (and his wife and family) had to be out by Christmas Eve.

What a charmer.

MissDorothyParker Fri 28-Jun-19 16:30:57

It really is fascinating! Thank you to all of you with the knowledge grin

The whole "heir of his body" bit could be troublesome in the event of a king married to a man, but should be okay if babies are conceived with the king's own sperm?*

*Things I never thought I'd say

theaccidentaleconomist Fri 28-Jun-19 16:43:43

Or in the case of a lesbian queen would it be more acceptable for her heir to be conceived via an anonymous sperm donor or with the help of a 'friend' who might have some role in the child's future upbringing?

I'd love to see a royal same sex wedding with two brides, if only to see how they would coordinate the wedding dresses and tiaras.

That is, of course assuming that they both would opt for dresses and tiaras. smile

Nogravyforyou Fri 28-Jun-19 16:44:10

Not technically fashion related but possible royal gossip, does anyone know who this might be! Just landed at KP

AnneEyhtMeyer Fri 28-Jun-19 16:53:24

Hopefully surrogacy will be outlawed by the time those children are adults, it's barbaric.

AdaColeman Fri 28-Jun-19 16:54:56

But if the king was married to a male partner, even if the heir was conceived from the King's sperm via a surrogate mother, would the heir be legitimate?

QueenOfTheAndals Fri 28-Jun-19 17:11:15

Totally agree @AnneEyhtMeyer

QueenOfTheAndals Fri 28-Jun-19 17:11:35

@Nogravyforyou Is it the DoE??

GotToGoMyOwnWay Fri 28-Jun-19 17:13:14

Good point Ada

UrsulaPandress Fri 28-Jun-19 17:23:26

Looks like the Duke of Kent to me.

Nogravyforyou Fri 28-Jun-19 17:24:01

I thought it looked like Charles if I'm being honest.

QueenOfTheAndals Fri 28-Jun-19 17:28:06

That would be my next guess @UrsulaPandress and the DoK does live there, doesn't he?

JaimeBronde Fri 28-Jun-19 18:06:40

Re: same sex marriage, I often wonder when your husband is knighted like Sir Elton John, why you don't get a courtesy title too i.e why can't David Furnish be Lady John or even the Rt Hon John?
Yes I know Lady John seems a bit mad but if David Furnish was a Davina or legally changed his gender & had a new birth certificate stating he was now female then Lady would be automatic.
Just had a thought how about Laddie John grin

FATEdestiny Fri 28-Jun-19 18:08:54

Duke of Kent was ribbon cutting in Nottingham today could be him going home

beanaseireann Fri 28-Jun-19 18:14:50

Aren't some daughters of peers fighting for their right to succeed their fathers at the moment. It seems very unfair that the Queen can change things to suit the Windsors- just prior to George being born- but your common or garden aristocracy wink cannot !

Inniu Fri 28-Jun-19 18:30:27

Sure the whole point of monarchy and aristocracy is unfairness.

beanaseireann Fri 28-Jun-19 18:39:52

Inniu - judging by your name you're Irish too- am I right?

UrsulaPandress Fri 28-Jun-19 18:49:29

Didn't the Lords vote against changing inheritance for woman?

QueenOfTheAndals Fri 28-Jun-19 18:51:41

Julian Fellowes wrote Downton because his wife is the last of the Kitcheners but couldn't inherit the title.

JaimeBronde Fri 28-Jun-19 18:57:44

Ursula if they did vote against it, that's awful.
Hundreds of years ago due to the way society was I can see the argument for titles only to be passed down the male line.
However life now is very different we don't go round pillaging & plundering etc. So it makes no sense that titles cannot be passed down to the first born whether they are male or female.

Inniu Fri 28-Jun-19 19:02:18

Of course

Paradyning Fri 28-Jun-19 19:04:24

Wow this is interesting about Princess Haya

DM link
Dubai's Princess Haya 'goes into hiding in London after break-up'

A bit reminiscent of Princess Lalla

Paradyning Fri 28-Jun-19 19:06:49

I didn't realise that Haya was a Jordanian Princess too. Half-sister to the current King

UrsulaPandress Fri 28-Jun-19 19:36:52

Re the Lords, it was something to do with Self ID. Basically a male identifying as female could still inherit as a male.

beanaseireann Fri 28-Jun-19 19:40:07

Didn't former Irish President Mary Robinson set up a meeting with the recaptured princess and Haya ? - Mary Robinson came in for a lot of criticism from feminists for her involvement.
I think Princess Haya lived in Ireland for a time. The Al Maktoums have ( or had) big racing interests in Ireland.

BlingLoving Fri 28-Jun-19 19:43:00

So a woman can id as man and inherit?!

UrsulaPandress Fri 28-Jun-19 19:48:46

Don't be silly Bling.

Basically you can Self ID as whatever you want but only a 'born' male can inherit a title.

beanaseireann Fri 28-Jun-19 19:50:58

I've just remembered that Princess Haya gave an interview on Irish radio on Marian Finucane's show defending Mary Robinson and the meeting with Princess Latifah, her step daughter.

Paradyning Fri 28-Jun-19 20:36:05

Yes that's right @beanaseireann. Latifa was drugged up to hell allegedly

mumdom Fri 28-Jun-19 20:42:36

I was at university with both Princess Haya and her cousin Princess Badiyah who was the daughter of the then Crown Prince of Jordan who was disinherited on King Abdullah’s deathbed.

They were understandably slightly wary of us plebs and ran with what was then charmlessly called the Eurotrash crowd of very rich displaced royals and aristos whose parents were all - coincidentally wink - benefactors.

Badiyah married her white British boyfriend. It must have gone down like a cold cup of sick with her Arab cousins, although he converted to Islam.

Paradyning Fri 28-Jun-19 21:25:23

Ooo interesting mumdom

AudacityOfHope Fri 28-Jun-19 21:49:47

Placemarking as I have nothing at all useful to add smile

Myimaginarycathasfleas Fri 28-Jun-19 22:08:03

Have we ever had a royal at Glastonbury? I feel it's only a matter of time.

Laiste Fri 28-Jun-19 22:10:51

I feel as if that would be against the spirit of Glastonbury tbh and a sad day grin

JaimeBronde Fri 28-Jun-19 22:15:44

Yes there's been a royal at Glasto......Danny Dyer 😂

For our overseas posters who aren't aware of Danny's royal ancestry

JaimeBronde Fri 28-Jun-19 22:17:42


QueenOfTheAndals Fri 28-Jun-19 22:23:35

@Myimaginarycathasfleas Surely one of the lesser Windsors like Amelia or her siblings have been?

Inniu Fri 28-Jun-19 22:25:48

Harry went to Glastonbury when he was with Cressida

Myimaginarycathasfleas Fri 28-Jun-19 22:40:49

I didn't know that @Inniu but 100% Harry would have been my first guess, I can see him flag waving with Cressida perched on his shoulders!

Daisypie Fri 28-Jun-19 22:42:46

Back to the females not inheriting. The whole set up is just so utterly archaic and male-centred. That's why I find it weird to see how feminist Meghan fits in.

GotToGoMyOwnWay Fri 28-Jun-19 23:02:34

Daisy I think Meghan May be a feminist but even a feminist can fall in love. I think had she been brought up here she may not have married Harry as she have had more of an idea of what she was letting herself in for!

CurlyWurlyTwirly Sat 29-Jun-19 05:36:55

I also think Meghan also sees her position as a member of the RF as something which can influence women globally. Look at her stance regarding girls education; women in developing countries.
As a Commonwealth youth ambassador she has a huge remit and global reach, and the potential to do more than if she had just remained Meghan Markle.

Her initial projects such as the cookbook ( I forget the name; even though I bought it!) raised about £300k.
The famous writing in bananas shone a spotlight on that particular charity which saw a huge rise in donations.
She’s done a heck of a lot in one year of marriage; notwithstanding producing a baby.

Then she hasn’t even harnessed the power of being American yet. The Oprah thing will raise a huge amount of money for he future Sussex foundation.

GotToGoMyOwnWay Sat 29-Jun-19 07:13:05

Can’t remember if anyone posted this yesterday but think HM looks fabulous.

Horsemad Sat 29-Jun-19 08:05:53

She does GotTo 😀

AliasGrape Sat 29-Jun-19 08:10:36

Lovely picture GottoGo, love HM in yellow.

The hereditary titles/ male and female lines discussion is fascinating. Can’t believe it’s still so patriarchal- we’ll i mean of course I can believe it but how depressing.

QueenOfTheAndals Sat 29-Jun-19 08:11:12

Tatler on royals at Wimbledon over the years. A few surprises like George VI playing in 1926 and Charles Dance joining the DoK in the 90s.

This month also features an interview with James Middleton. I forgot he's several years younger than Kate and was only 23 when they married. He's rather dishy with that beard!

GotToGoMyOwnWay Sat 29-Jun-19 08:16:46

Thanks for that Queen I didn’t recognise prince Albert at all. I’m keeping fingers
everything crossed that Kate & Meghan turn up together looking absolutely fabulous.

Hairydilemma Sat 29-Jun-19 08:28:37

That Tatler Wimbledon montage is great, and their others - this one on royals at polo is nice too:

Can’t believe how many of these threads there have been and how fast they move - missed quite a bit recently but place firmly marked now!

Thanks Queen for starting and marshalling the threads and everyone for generally good-humoured and respectful debate. smile

AppleKatie Sat 29-Jun-19 08:34:48

A charmed life indeed phoned his doc from the car and actually spoke to him then was referred to a specialist within the hour 😱

I don’t actually begrudge him I’m just jealous. He is very cute and I’m pleased he’s had such a swift recovery.

beanaseireann Sat 29-Jun-19 08:53:58

Thank you Queen- the photos from Tatler of Wimbledon down the years was fascinating.

Spudlet Sat 29-Jun-19 10:39:37

Royal dream klaxon!

So I went to the State Opening of Parliament, only it was all held in the Commons chamber and HMW was in one of her coat dress and hat numbers (bright pink, she looked good). I was in my dressing gown and had a whole bench to myself so put my feet up. Black Rod was wearing his normal outfit but with a woolly hat with ear flaps, and he had to run around the edge of the chamber and play the reveille on the recorder at each corner. We all thought this was v funny (Queen included) and did a Mexican wave at one point.

Then a cat came in chasing a rat and Meghan came and sat with me, and we chatted about cats. Harry was watching, looked a bit nervous - I thought he was worried I’d be mean to Meghan (who was lovely).

Then we all got into the car and went to H & M’s place which was nice but had no furniture. I helped Harry unload his Ocado order (I was at that point dressed) and a load of random paperwork. The upstairs if their house was v cottagey, but the staircase was a big glass and wood modern number - but no furniture at all! Then my DSs speech therapist randomly arrived (only it wasn’t his actual ST, but in the dream it was) and we chatted about DS and how much progress he was making. That was it. confused

My brain worries me sometimes grin

ElspethFlashman Sat 29-Jun-19 11:40:56

A charmed life indeed phoned his doc from the car and actually spoke to him then was referred to a specialist within the hour

I live in Ireland and I'd get that in the public system. I can get access to my GP at quite short notice, usually only a day or two, and they'd definitely ring me back if I was in crisis. And refer me. BUT then the appointment for the specialist might take 2 years to come through! hmm

(That's why I've forked out for private this year for the first time in my life - big difference between 2 years if public and 3 months if private)

I can't believe he was only 23. We really didn't take that into account at all. Its a sobering thought. At 23 I would have been a mess if my family had gone through the blaze of such publicity.

QueenOfTheAndals Sat 29-Jun-19 11:47:45

I bet they do use Ocado though @Spudlet!

SenecaFalls Sat 29-Jun-19 11:52:32

I agree GoTo. I watched the video last night of HMQ arriving at Holyrood. That yellow ensemble is one of her best looks yet. The scallop detail on the coat is a really lovely touch. It looked especially good when she walked, which she did quite a bit of, reviewing the guard, etc.

GotToGoMyOwnWay Sat 29-Jun-19 11:53:56

Quite Elspeth it’s easy to forget how the Middleton’s must have all been affected by Kate’s marriage.

Horsemad Sat 29-Jun-19 12:02:52

Hahaha Spudlet, that was some dream! 😆

Spudlet Sat 29-Jun-19 12:59:54

It certainly was! Also:

Black Rod had to flap his hat’s ear flaps before each rendition;
The cat looked like Bagpuss;
The rat looked like a blonde ferret.

Wtf, brain blushconfused

Laiste Sat 29-Jun-19 13:13:05

I had a random dream about Harry once. About 18 months ago. I'm not that fussed about him at all IRL but this dream was one of those dreams. One that you remember ...

We were in the desert in the shade of one of those massive cargo planes and the army was running about around us and Harry was in his desert fatigues. I was all faint and distressed and looking fabulous sitting on a box wearing v.high heels and a mini dress (like you do in the desert in a crisis). I was injured slightly and he was kneeling close to me with his hand on my leg looking earnestly into my eyes and saying (in his plumy voice) 'I.will.not.leave.your.side. Don't be frightened'.

I was all oooooh. Harry though!? when i woke up grin

Spudlet Sat 29-Jun-19 13:15:31

Ooh Laiste! grin

Laiste Sat 29-Jun-19 13:22:24

I tried very hard to make the dream carry on from that point, but i was waking up and it just woudn't happen. Y'know? Really annoying! hmmgrin

CurlyWurlyTwirly Sat 29-Jun-19 13:35:17

That was a great retrospective of the Royals at Wimbledon @QueenOfTheAndals

I wonder if they get invited, or just ask for tickets.
The Queen seemed to have gone pretty regularly back in the 1970s

CurlyWurlyTwirly Sat 29-Jun-19 13:37:21

I meant to post the yellow outfit yesterday.
I think it is my favourite colour on HM. That and deep shades of pink.

JaimeBronde Sat 29-Jun-19 14:07:23

How lovely does HM look!
I would not want to be a bearskin in this weather. Those soldiers must have veins of ice.

GotToGoMyOwnWay Sat 29-Jun-19 15:00:33

Lovely photos in the Tatler retrospective thank you. There was one of Prince Edward & I actually thought it was William for a split second. What a difference a full head of hair makes. Which makes me wonder- the royals are wealthy beyond belief, yet no make hair transplants?

Paradyning Sat 29-Jun-19 16:42:58

Haya's fled with 31mil! That's a lot of Chanel!

CurlyWurlyTwirly Sat 29-Jun-19 17:19:23

Meghan is at an Invictus baseball game with Harry

CurlyWurlyTwirly Sat 29-Jun-19 17:20:42

This made me snort

(William, George, LGBT)

CurlyWurlyTwirly Sat 29-Jun-19 17:21:48

Love Maxima’s hair

CurlyWurlyTwirly Sat 29-Jun-19 17:23:03

Kate’s identical hats

QueenOfTheAndals Sat 29-Jun-19 17:32:02

Meghan in Wearing Flats shocker!!

SenecaFalls Sat 29-Jun-19 17:42:40

Well, if Meghan wore high heels to a baseball game, she would have to forfeit her American citizenship immediately. Because that would be the mark of someone who knows nothing about baseball. ⚾

JaimeBronde Sat 29-Jun-19 17:46:43

That outfit really suits Meghan.

GotToGoMyOwnWay Sat 29-Jun-19 17:48:06

Hmm those photos of Kate - I have lots of clothes that are the same just variations of colour. I’m an odd shape so if I find something that suits I’ll grab it in all available colours!

Join the discussion

Registering is free, quick, and means you can join in the discussion, watch threads, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Get started »